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cracklover
Jun 3, 2011, 8:24 PM
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I've only blown a clip once. I was about 80 feet up on an overhanging sport route. Fell about 30 feet, including lifting my belayer and rope stretch.
Definitely not a safe practice to do all the time. Falling 30 feet means you could deck reaching high to clip bolt 2, 3, and even 4.
GO
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cracklover
Jun 3, 2011, 8:28 PM
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shockabuku wrote: redlude97 wrote: j_ung wrote: redlude97 wrote: Why does clipping high vs. clipping low make a difference? Clip from the best stance possible. Hasn't this already been hashed out that the difference is minimal in either case in terms of fall distance? I don't that this particular issue has been hashed out at all. If it has, it sounds like people came to the wrong conclusion—it can make all the difference between hitting something and not hitting something. I agree with your other point wholeheartedly, though. The safest clipping stance is the one from which you're least likely to fall. Sorry you are right I should have clarified my point. If you aren't going to deck or hit a ledge, the fall distance is the same when clipping high or at the waist. You do end up lower when clipping high though, but the force is actually lower. You're not talking about falling during the clip, correct? If you attempt to clip from a lower stance (provided you're still below the bolt) you will fall farther if you blow the clip.
No you won't. You'll fall lower, but not further.
GO
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redlude97
Jun 3, 2011, 8:29 PM
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shockabuku wrote: redlude97 wrote: j_ung wrote: redlude97 wrote: Why does clipping high vs. clipping low make a difference? Clip from the best stance possible. Hasn't this already been hashed out that the difference is minimal in either case in terms of fall distance? I don't that this particular issue has been hashed out at all. If it has, it sounds like people came to the wrong conclusion—it can make all the difference between hitting something and not hitting something. I agree with your other point wholeheartedly, though. The safest clipping stance is the one from which you're least likely to fall. Sorry you are right I should have clarified my point. If you aren't going to deck or hit a ledge, the fall distance is the same when clipping high or at the waist. You do end up lower when clipping high though, but the force is actually lower. You're not talking about falling during the clip, correct? If you attempt to clip from a lower stance (provided you're still below the bolt) you will fall farther if you blow the clip.
(This post was edited by redlude97 on Jun 3, 2011, 8:40 PM)
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redlude97
Jun 3, 2011, 8:37 PM
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jose32 wrote: redlude97 wrote: Falling while clipping with slack out isn't that uncommon. . Hmm might be common where you climb not where I climb indoor or out and not so sure that should be stated as commonplace. Our area has walls / crags that are generally short, you're at the top by the time you get to where you could maybe afford(IMHO) a blown clip. Personally I wouldn't risk blowing a clip below the 6th on a straight up and down body length spaced bolt line. If I don't think I can clip I generally just take the fall. As someone else mentioned you can't really assume your belayer will be able to get much back either, especially down low. If they have a gri gri I think it's even harder to pull a bunch of slack back fast, the device will want to lock...
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sticky_fingers
Jun 3, 2011, 9:06 PM
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cracklover wrote: shockabuku wrote: redlude97 wrote: j_ung wrote: redlude97 wrote: Why does clipping high vs. clipping low make a difference? Clip from the best stance possible. Hasn't this already been hashed out that the difference is minimal in either case in terms of fall distance? I don't that this particular issue has been hashed out at all. If it has, it sounds like people came to the wrong conclusion—it can make all the difference between hitting something and not hitting something. I agree with your other point wholeheartedly, though. The safest clipping stance is the one from which you're least likely to fall. Sorry you are right I should have clarified my point. If you aren't going to deck or hit a ledge, the fall distance is the same when clipping high or at the waist. You do end up lower when clipping high though, but the force is actually lower. You're not talking about falling during the clip, correct? If you attempt to clip from a lower stance (provided you're still below the bolt) you will fall farther if you blow the clip. No you won't. You'll fall lower, but not further. GO
Crack and Red are right. Took me a minute to figure out the difference between lower and farther.
Assumptions: two bolts, 6ft vertical separation, 0ft horizontal separation
Case 1, Clipping from low stance:
Climber’s waist 3ft below upper bolt, 0ft horizontally displaced
Climber grabs ~6ft of rope to make the clip, however before making the clip there is now 9ft of rope out (3ft (bottom bolt to waist) + ~6ft rope for clipping). Climber falls ~9ft + rope stretch below last clipped bolt, but since they started 3ft above the bolt, total fall distance is ~12ft, not ~18ft.
Case 2, Clipping from next to bolt:
Other situation, climber climbs up to second bolt so his/her waist is <1ft horizontally from the bolt. Climber grabs ~1ft of rope to make the clip. Before making the clip there is 7ft of rope out (6ft (bottom bolt to waist) + ~1ft rope for clipping). Climber falls ~7ft + rope stretch below last clipped bolt, but since they started 6ft above a bolt, total fall distance is ~14ft.
Summary
Clipping from low stance = shorter total fall distance, yet ending up farther below last clipped bolt
Clipping next to bolt = longer total fall distance, yet ending up not as far below last clipped bolt.
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hafilax
Jun 3, 2011, 9:20 PM
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In most of the sport climbing I've done, the person who put in the bolts tended to put them above the stances. You do need to know how to clip ahead safely.
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jomagam
Jun 3, 2011, 9:26 PM
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cracklover wrote: shockabuku wrote: redlude97 wrote: j_ung wrote: redlude97 wrote: Why does clipping high vs. clipping low make a difference? Clip from the best stance possible. Hasn't this already been hashed out that the difference is minimal in either case in terms of fall distance? I don't that this particular issue has been hashed out at all. If it has, it sounds like people came to the wrong conclusion—it can make all the difference between hitting something and not hitting something. I agree with your other point wholeheartedly, though. The safest clipping stance is the one from which you're least likely to fall. Sorry you are right I should have clarified my point. If you aren't going to deck or hit a ledge, the fall distance is the same when clipping high or at the waist. You do end up lower when clipping high though, but the force is actually lower. You're not talking about falling during the clip, correct? If you attempt to clip from a lower stance (provided you're still below the bolt) you will fall farther if you blow the clip. No you won't. You'll fall lower, but not further. GO
The bigger issue IMO is how long to takes to make the clip during which you can only use one arm. When clipping from the waist it's not more than a second. If you need to pull up a lot of slack because you're on you're tiptoeing to make the clip then I'd guess it's more like 3 seconds. Add the fact that you will have to make a movement (pulling slack) which can be somewhat strenuous especially if you're high up and can throw you off balance or make a foot slip.
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jt512
Jun 3, 2011, 10:22 PM
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sticky_fingers wrote: cracklover wrote: shockabuku wrote: redlude97 wrote: j_ung wrote: redlude97 wrote: Why does clipping high vs. clipping low make a difference? Clip from the best stance possible. Hasn't this already been hashed out that the difference is minimal in either case in terms of fall distance? I don't that this particular issue has been hashed out at all. If it has, it sounds like people came to the wrong conclusion—it can make all the difference between hitting something and not hitting something. I agree with your other point wholeheartedly, though. The safest clipping stance is the one from which you're least likely to fall. Sorry you are right I should have clarified my point. If you aren't going to deck or hit a ledge, the fall distance is the same when clipping high or at the waist. You do end up lower when clipping high though, but the force is actually lower. You're not talking about falling during the clip, correct? If you attempt to clip from a lower stance (provided you're still below the bolt) you will fall farther if you blow the clip. No you won't. You'll fall lower, but not further. GO Crack and Red are right. Took me a minute to figure out the difference between lower and farther. Assumptions: two bolts, 6ft vertical separation, 0ft horizontal separation Case 1, Clipping from low stance: Climber’s waist 3ft below upper bolt, 0ft horizontally displaced Climber grabs ~6ft of rope to make the clip, however before making the clip there is now 9ft of rope out (3ft (bottom bolt to waist) + ~6ft rope for clipping). Climber falls ~9ft + rope stretch below last clipped bolt, but since they started 3ft above the bolt, total fall distance is ~12ft, not ~18ft. Case 2, Clipping from next to bolt: Other situation, climber climbs up to second bolt so his/her waist is <1ft horizontally from the bolt. Climber grabs ~1ft of rope to make the clip. Before making the clip there is 7ft of rope out (6ft (bottom bolt to waist) + ~1ft rope for clipping). Climber falls ~7ft + rope stretch below last clipped bolt, but since they started 6ft above a bolt, total fall distance is ~14ft. Summary Clipping from low stance = shorter total fall distance, yet ending up farther below last clipped bolt Clipping next to bolt = longer total fall distance, yet ending up not as far below last clipped bolt.
Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in.
I didn't check your math, but you're making the calculation unnecessarily complicated by including the 1 foot of horizontal separation (which you're handling incorrectly in the calculation anyway—do the trig if you must). For all intents and purposes, the fall length will be the same whether you clip the bolt overhead, at your waist, or anywhere in between. If you actually clip the bolt below your waist, the fall will be longer.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Jun 6, 2011, 4:00 AM)
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jt512
Jun 3, 2011, 10:29 PM
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jomagam wrote: cracklover wrote: shockabuku wrote: redlude97 wrote: j_ung wrote: redlude97 wrote: Why does clipping high vs. clipping low make a difference? Clip from the best stance possible. Hasn't this already been hashed out that the difference is minimal in either case in terms of fall distance? I don't that this particular issue has been hashed out at all. If it has, it sounds like people came to the wrong conclusion—it can make all the difference between hitting something and not hitting something. I agree with your other point wholeheartedly, though. The safest clipping stance is the one from which you're least likely to fall. Sorry you are right I should have clarified my point. If you aren't going to deck or hit a ledge, the fall distance is the same when clipping high or at the waist. You do end up lower when clipping high though, but the force is actually lower. You're not talking about falling during the clip, correct? If you attempt to clip from a lower stance (provided you're still below the bolt) you will fall farther if you blow the clip. No you won't. You'll fall lower, but not further. GO The bigger issue IMO is how long to takes to make the clip during which you can only use one arm. When clipping from the waist it's not more than a second. If you need to pull up a lot of slack because you're on you're tiptoeing to make the clip then I'd guess it's more like 3 seconds. Add the fact that you will have to make a movement (pulling slack) which can be somewhat strenuous especially if you're high up and can throw you off balance or make a foot slip.
If the quality of the stance and the handholds are the same no matter where you clip from, then you're right: the time spent clipping is important. But it is commonly the case that the stance or handholds are significantly better at one clipping stance than the other. If they're better at the lower stance then it is often better to make the clip from there than from higher.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Jun 3, 2011, 10:30 PM)
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sticky_fingers
Jun 3, 2011, 10:44 PM
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jt512 wrote: sticky_fingers wrote: cracklover wrote: shockabuku wrote: redlude97 wrote: j_ung wrote: redlude97 wrote: Why does clipping high vs. clipping low make a difference? Clip from the best stance possible. Hasn't this already been hashed out that the difference is minimal in either case in terms of fall distance? I don't that this particular issue has been hashed out at all. If it has, it sounds like people came to the wrong conclusion—it can make all the difference between hitting something and not hitting something. I agree with your other point wholeheartedly, though. The safest clipping stance is the one from which you're least likely to fall. Sorry you are right I should have clarified my point. If you aren't going to deck or hit a ledge, the fall distance is the same when clipping high or at the waist. You do end up lower when clipping high though, but the force is actually lower. You're not talking about falling during the clip, correct? If you attempt to clip from a lower stance (provided you're still below the bolt) you will fall farther if you blow the clip. No you won't. You'll fall lower, but not further. GO Crack and Red are right. Took me a minute to figure out the difference between lower and farther. Assumptions: two bolts, 6ft vertical separation, 0ft horizontal separation Case 1, Clipping from low stance: Climber’s waist 3ft below upper bolt, 0ft horizontally displaced Climber grabs ~6ft of rope to make the clip, however before making the clip there is now 9ft of rope out (3ft (bottom bolt to waist) + ~6ft rope for clipping). Climber falls ~9ft + rope stretch below last clipped bolt, but since they started 3ft above the bolt, total fall distance is ~12ft, not ~18ft. Case 2, Clipping from next to bolt: Other situation, climber climbs up to second bolt so his/her waist is <1ft horizontally from the bolt. Climber grabs ~1ft of rope to make the clip. Before making the clip there is 7ft of rope out (6ft (bottom bolt to waist) + ~1ft rope for clipping). Climber falls ~7ft + rope stretch below last clipped bolt, but since they started 6ft above a bolt, total fall distance is ~14ft. Summary Clipping from low stance = shorter total fall distance, yet ending up farther below last clipped bolt Clipping next to bolt = longer total fall distance, yet ending up not as far below last clipped bolt. Just as I thought I was out, they pull me back in. I didn't check your math, but you're making the calculation unnecessarily complicated by including the 1 foot of horizontal separation (which you're handling incorrectly in the calculation anyway—do the trig if you must). For all intents and purposes, the fall length will be the same whether you clip the bolt overhead, at your waist, or anywhere in between. If you actually clip the bolt below your waist, the fall will be longer. Jay
damn you jay, i think you're right....
(Edited)
I take it back. In the second scenario, the climber has to pull 1.0827ft of rope in order to make the clip. I stand by my ~1ft and I stand by my fall distances.
------------------
Ok, I'll admit that the 1ft horizontal example (Case 2) is not good. Replace that with an example of your waist being directly in front of a bolt. Fall from this position and you're looking at a ~12ft fall, ending up ~6ft + rope stretch below last bolt.
Case 1 has you falling the same ~12ft distance, but from a position closer to the lower bolt, so you're going to end up lower.
Disagree?
(This post was edited by sticky_fingers on Jun 4, 2011, 3:16 AM)
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jomagam
Jun 3, 2011, 10:50 PM
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In reply to: If the quality of the stance and the handholds are the same no matter where you clip from, then you're right: the time spent clipping is important. But it is commonly the case that the stance or handholds are significantly better at one clipping stance than the other. If they're better at the lower stance then it is often better to make the clip from there than from higher.
I left that part out because I thought that was obvious. Clip from the jug if you can! Sometimes I even make a little move off a jug or ledge then clip the quickdraw then go back to the ledge/jug to clip the rope (now that it's enough to reach about 10 inches lower).
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spikeddem
Jun 3, 2011, 11:01 PM
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sungam wrote: Yikes! Sounds like a close catch. So you're blown clips are planned falls, right?
Except the one at the Red, yes.
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jomagam
Jun 4, 2011, 1:44 AM
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Make things simple and assume 10 feet between bolts and let's ignore the lengths of the quickdraws. Assume that the previous bolt is 30 feet off the ground.
1st scenario: clip at waist. There will be 10 feet of rope out above the bolt below. You'll free fall from 40 to 20 feet. Fall factor 0.5 (20/40). You'll be
2nd scenario: clip when waist is 5 feet below the bolt. There will be 15 feet of rope out, 10 from the previous bolt to the next one and 5 from the next bolt back to the harness. You'll free fall from 35 feet to 15 feet off the ground. Fall factor 0.44 (20/45).
You're kinetic energy will be the same in both scenarios when the rope starts to decelerate you, but you'll be 5 feet closer to the ground. The fall factor is a little more forgiving though if you clip low.
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shockabuku
Jun 4, 2011, 3:10 AM
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Okay. I think I may have been confused about which was being discussed, fall distance vs. ending height.
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bearbreeder
Jun 4, 2011, 5:47 AM
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ditto ...
at the end of the day the leader clips where he/she feels comfortable ...
if you dont agree with it have a quiet word, or dont belay the person
its up to them how they climb ... and up to you how you climb ...
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billl7
Jun 4, 2011, 12:08 PM
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linteater wrote: So my partner and I recently started learning to lead climb at the gym. .... It terrifies me, to be honest.
You both are just beginning. Maybe take a lead climbing class at the gym and seek clarity that way?
Bill L
P.S. Nice troll.
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linteater
Jun 4, 2011, 2:46 PM
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Thanks for your replies.
We actually did learn to lead through a lead climbing class at the gym.
I think one of the big things is that we're leading on relatively easier routes meant for practicing lead, so they put several options near the clip for clipping to accomodate short and tall people alike. On the last fall, my partner used a hold that really wasn't working for his height, and when I pointed out the big jug just above his right hand (before he fell and afterwards) he did concede that I had a point.
I'm mostly concerned about the fact that he pre-emptively takes 2 arm-lengths of slack, whether he needs that much or not. He doesn't even try clipping in with one arm length because he says he doesn't want to have to go back for more. I just wanted to know if that was normal or something we should be working on.
The gym employees have watched him almost hit the ground twice, and haven't said anything yet, other than to discourage me anchoring myself to the ground.
I will def practice pulling in extra yardage when I see him fall though.
(This post was edited by linteater on Jun 4, 2011, 3:02 PM)
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notapplicable
Jun 4, 2011, 3:49 PM
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You should encourage him to watch how the more experienced climbers in the gym clip. He can then compare that to his style and find some ways to improve.
Just like in most other aspects of climbing, some of the biggest gains a new climber can make will be through improvements in economy of motion. Things need to be done smoothly, quickly and efficiently. Judging how much rope to pull up will come with experience but it sounds like his whole system for pulling up that slack is pretty inefficient and is probably contributing to the fact that he falls while clipping so often.
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jt512
Jun 5, 2011, 12:16 AM
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sticky_fingers wrote: jt512 wrote: sticky_finger wrote: Crack and Red are right. Took me a minute to figure out the difference between lower and farther. Assumptions: two bolts, 6ft vertical separation, 0ft horizontal separation Case 1, Clipping from low stance: Climber’s waist 3ft below upper bolt, 0ft horizontally displaced Climber grabs ~6ft of rope to make the clip, however before making the clip there is now 9ft of rope out (3ft (bottom bolt to waist) + ~6ft rope for clipping). Climber falls ~9ft + rope stretch below last clipped bolt, but since they started 3ft above the bolt, total fall distance is ~12ft, not ~18ft. Case 2, Clipping from next to bolt: Other situation, climber climbs up to second bolt so his/her waist is <1ft horizontally from the bolt. Climber grabs ~1ft of rope to make the clip. Before making the clip there is 7ft of rope out (6ft (bottom bolt to waist) + ~1ft rope for clipping). Climber falls ~7ft + rope stretch below last clipped bolt, but since they started 6ft above a bolt, total fall distance is ~14ft. Summary Clipping from low stance = shorter total fall distance, yet ending up farther below last clipped bolt Clipping next to bolt = longer total fall distance, yet ending up not as far below last clipped bolt. Just as I thought I was out, they pull me back in. I didn't check your math, but you're making the calculation unnecessarily complicated by including the 1 foot of horizontal separation (which you're handling incorrectly in the calculation anyway—do the trig if you must). For all intents and purposes, the fall length will be the same whether you clip the bolt overhead, at your waist, or anywhere in between. If you actually clip the bolt below your waist, the fall will be longer. Jay damn you jay, i think you're right.... (Edited) I take it back. In the second scenario, the climber has to pull 1.0827ft of rope in order to make the clip. I stand by my ~1ft and I stand by my fall distances.
The correct answer turns out to be 0.917 feet, which is close to 1 foot, as you said, and closer to 1 foot than I originally imagined.
Before clipping, the rope forms the hypotenuse of a right triangle whose legs are 6' and 1'. By the Pythagorean theorem, the length of the hypotenuse is 6.083', which is the amount of rope between the previous bolt and the leader's tie-in knot. After clipping the bolt, the rope will trace the legs of the right triangle. Therefore, the additional amount of rope needed to clip is the difference between the sum of the lengths of the legs and the length of the hypotenuse, 7' – 6.083' = 0.917'.
In reply to: Ok, I'll admit that the 1ft horizontal example (Case 2) is not good. Replace that with an example of your waist being directly in front of a bolt. Fall from this position and you're looking at a ~12ft fall, ending up ~6ft + rope stretch below last bolt. Case 1 has you falling the same ~12ft distance, but from a position closer to the lower bolt, so you're going to end up lower. Disagree?
I agree with that.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Jun 5, 2011, 6:47 PM)
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mikebee
Jun 5, 2011, 9:21 AM
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In reply to: I will def practice pulling in extra yardage when I see him fall though.
Keep the catch dynamic though!
You can take rope back in while he's actually in the air falling, but once that rope starts to slow him down (once the rope starts to become tight against your belay device), don't forget to lock off and maybe even give a little jump. Taking in while the rope is slowing him down has the potential to slam him into the wall and injure and ankle or two.
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sungam
Jun 5, 2011, 9:29 AM
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mikebee wrote: In reply to: I will def practice pulling in extra yardage when I see him fall though. Keep the catch dynamic though! You can take rope back in while he's actually in the air falling, but once that rope starts to slow him down (once the rope starts to become tight against your belay device), don't forget to lock off and maybe even give a little jump. Taking in while the rope is slowing him down has the potential to slam him into the wall and injure and ankle or two.
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blueeyedclimber
Jun 7, 2011, 12:45 PM
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linteater wrote: I'm mostly concerned about the fact that he pre-emptively takes 2 arm-lengths of slack, whether he needs that much or not.
I can confidently tell you that he does NOT need 2 arm lengths. It is physically impossible to reach a clip that is 2 arm lengths away. 
In reply to: I will def practice pulling in extra yardage when I see him fall though.
In my experience in all but the longest falls, you will only have time for one arms length and to sit down or move back (only do that to prevent hitting the ground/ledge/tree). If hitting anything is not a danger, then pulling in slack and/or sitting down will make the catch harder.
Josh
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linteater
Jun 9, 2011, 5:06 PM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: I can confidently tell you that he does NOT need 2 arm lengths. It is physically impossible to reach a clip that is 2 arm lengths away.
In reply to: In my experience in all but the longest falls, you will only have time for one arms length and to sit down or move back (only do that to prevent hitting the ground/ledge/tree). If hitting anything is not a danger, then pulling in slack and/or sitting down will make the catch harder.
Does sitting down/moving back actually change the fall distance if you're flying into the air regardless? He outweighs me by a good 60 pounds.
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blueeyedclimber
Jun 9, 2011, 5:15 PM
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linteater wrote: Does sitting down/moving back actually change the fall distance if you're flying into the air regardless? He outweighs me by a good 60 pounds.
Well, I wouldn't necessarily say that you would fly up regardless, but with a 60 lb. difference that is likely. If you put momentum/weight in the opposite direction, however, you can certainly limit that, or in some cases resist it all together. It depends on different factors, most notably how much friction is in the system and how much rope is out. The more rope out, the more it will absorb the fall.
If you fear a fall low to the ground and you think you will be pulled up and won't be able to prevent a ground fall, then either someone heavier should belay OR you should be anchored.
Josh
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