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viavelo
Jun 9, 2011, 5:15 PM
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This may be a dumb question, but would it be possible to climb to the top of a top rope route, clip into the biners at the top using the cord, prepare the rappel, then unclip the personal anchor, and rap down?
I am looking to use this as a means of holding me to a top rope anchor while i set up the rope to rappel. I was wondering if it is safe to use 6mm pmi cord thats rated at 6.8 kN to create one?
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blueeyedclimber
Jun 9, 2011, 5:26 PM
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viavelo wrote: This may be a dumb question, but would it be possible to climb to the top of a top rope route, clip into the biners at the top using the cord, prepare the rappel, then unclip the personal anchor, and rap down?
Is it a dumb question? Not when you compare it with all the rest. Yes it is certainly possible. My first question is why? Just to practice? in that case, practice away as long as you realize the penalty for messing up.
In reply to: I am looking to use this as a means of holding me to a top rope anchor while i set up the rope to rappel. I was wondering if it is safe to use 6mm pmi cord thats rated at 6.8 kN to create one?
I personally would use something with a higher rating. Just don't climb above the anchor and slip and fall on it. Someone with a better grasp of numbers can tell you whether that type of static fall might approach the 6.8 kn, but you do not want to ever take a static fall anyways. It hurts, and does put more force on the anchor components.
Josh
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viavelo
Jun 9, 2011, 5:36 PM
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thanks for the input. im a novice and want to get my rapping skills down. im def not gonna climb above the anchor. id like to be able to rap down vs being lowered and am trying to figure a safe way to go about it.
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jt512
Jun 9, 2011, 5:57 PM
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viavelo wrote: thanks for the input. im a novice and want to get my rapping skills down. im def not gonna climb above the anchor. id like to be able to rap down vs being lowered and am trying to figure a safe way to go about it.
It's standard practice at sport climbing crags to lower off, not rappel. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
That said, of course you should know how to rappel.
Jay
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johnwesely
Jun 9, 2011, 6:20 PM
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jt512 wrote: It's standard practice at sport climbing crags to lower off, not rappel. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Jay
I actually enjoy being preached at from time to time.
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kobaz
Jun 9, 2011, 7:19 PM
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jt512 wrote: viavelo wrote: thanks for the input. im a novice and want to get my rapping skills down. im def not gonna climb above the anchor. id like to be able to rap down vs being lowered and am trying to figure a safe way to go about it. It's standard practice at sport climbing crags to lower off, not rappel. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. That said, of course you should know how to rappel. Jay
T1 ?
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TarHeelEMT
Jun 9, 2011, 7:45 PM
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You should be safe with what you describe. That said, redundancy is almost always a good thing. If I'm going to be clipping into a two-bolt anchor directly for a short period of time, I'll typically clip one tether into each bolt.
That said, be careful with static tethers.
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/flobi.html
You'd be surprised at the impact forces you can generate.
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redlude97
Jun 9, 2011, 7:45 PM
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Use the cord to make a purcell prussik, then use that as your anchor.
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TarHeelEMT
Jun 9, 2011, 7:45 PM
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redlude97 wrote: Use the cord to make a purcell prussik, then use that as your anchor.
This is what I like to use.
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viavelo
Jun 9, 2011, 7:57 PM
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thanks, yins guys!
im heading to coopers rock tomorrow and wanted to do some rap training.
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redlude97
Jun 9, 2011, 8:02 PM
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Almost everything static fails under a FF2 fall, and even if it doesn't the force generated is going to be more of a problem than anything. The solution is to not climb above your anchor.
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binrat
Jun 9, 2011, 9:50 PM
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I just read that site and he was contact by the original group?? Rigging for rescue?? I was first taught about the PP in 2000 by RfR. I have a hard time believing that RfR do that with the data they already had by 2006.
Like any system you might employ there are limitations and you have to know the limitations to be safe and effective.
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patto
Jun 9, 2011, 11:43 PM
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jt512 wrote: viavelo wrote: thanks for the input. im a novice and want to get my rapping skills down. im def not gonna climb above the anchor. id like to be able to rap down vs being lowered and am trying to figure a safe way to go about it. It's standard practice at sport climbing crags to lower off, not rappel. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. That said, of course you should know how to rappel. Jay
If it is such as standard why do you need to repeat it in every thread? Just because you think so doesn't make it standard. 
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potreroed
Jun 10, 2011, 4:36 AM
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patto wrote: jt512 wrote: viavelo wrote: thanks for the input. im a novice and want to get my rapping skills down. im def not gonna climb above the anchor. id like to be able to rap down vs being lowered and am trying to figure a safe way to go about it. It's standard practice at sport climbing crags to lower off, not rappel. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. That said, of course you should know how to rappel. Jay If it is such as standard why do you need to repeat it in every thread? Just because you think so doesn't make it standard.
It's the standard at most sport areas but not all.
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jt512
Jun 10, 2011, 8:14 AM
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patto wrote: jt512 wrote: viavelo wrote: thanks for the input. im a novice and want to get my rapping skills down. im def not gonna climb above the anchor. id like to be able to rap down vs being lowered and am trying to figure a safe way to go about it. It's standard practice at sport climbing crags to lower off, not rappel. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. That said, of course you should know how to rappel. Jay If it is such as standard why do you need to repeat it in every thread?
I've explained that in elegant terms elsewhere. Try and keep up.
In reply to: Just because you think so doesn't make it standard.
That's true. And just because you're a trad climber who doesn't know shit about how sport climbing is actually done doesn't mean it's non-standard. It means you should stay out of topics you know nothing about. And, for the zillionth time, you should stop trying to impose your arbitrary trad "ethics" on sport climbing.
Jay
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qwert
Jun 10, 2011, 8:55 AM
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viavelo wrote: This may be a dumb question, but would it be possible to climb to the top of a top rope route, clip into the biners at the top using the cord, prepare the rappel, then unclip the personal anchor, and rap down? I am looking to use this as a means of holding me to a top rope anchor while i set up the rope to rappel. I was wondering if it is safe to use 6mm pmi cord thats rated at 6.8 kN to create one?
If you have to as something about some weird as home made anchoring rig, you shouldnt attempt to rappel.
Had you learned what to do when preparing to rappel, you wouldnt have to ask that question.
So dont try to kill yourself, and let someone teach you how to rappel.
qwert
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patto
Jun 10, 2011, 10:10 AM
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jt512 wrote: That's true. And just because you're a trad climber who doesn't know shit about how sport climbing is actually done doesn't mean it's non-standard. It means you should stay out of topics you know nothing about. And, for the zillionth time, you should stop trying to impose your arbitrary trad "ethics" on sport climbing. Jay
I'm not trying to impose any ethics. I'm just objecting to you trying to impose your 'standards'.
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j_ung
Jun 10, 2011, 11:08 AM
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patto wrote: jt512 wrote: viavelo wrote: thanks for the input. im a novice and want to get my rapping skills down. im def not gonna climb above the anchor. id like to be able to rap down vs being lowered and am trying to figure a safe way to go about it. It's standard practice at sport climbing crags to lower off, not rappel. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. That said, of course you should know how to rappel. Jay If it is such as standard why do you need to repeat it in every thread? Just because you think so doesn't make it standard.
I know this is an unpopular viewpoint, but I think Jay's correct here. IMO, rapping from a modern sport anchor is mostly* ridiculous. Lowering is simpler, faster and safer. Many modern anchors are designed to, one, take the abuse and, two, be replaced easily when they can't.
I've now heard a few stories in which visiting climbers witnessed NRG locals lowering from anchors and proceeded to lecture them about how "the locals" don't want people lowering. In one case the lecturee was a permitted re-bolter—one of the people doing all the hard work so people can lower with a clean conscience. Of course, I don't speak for all the Fayettevillians, but as an NRAC Board member and somebody also permitted to replace hardware in the park, I would much rather see people stay on belay and lower. I do "all the hard work" in part to create a slightly safer environment for cragging, and it puzzles me to see people misusing the hardware I worked so hard to fund and install, and then chastising those who don't misuse it.
*Of course there are times when rapping makes more sense, such as from non-standard or outdated anchor types or in especially sandy areas.
(This post was edited by j_ung on Jun 10, 2011, 11:15 AM)
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jt512
Jun 10, 2011, 6:21 PM
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patto wrote: jt512 wrote: That's true. And just because you're a trad climber who doesn't know shit about how sport climbing is actually done doesn't mean it's non-standard. It means you should stay out of topics you know nothing about. And, for the zillionth time, you should stop trying to impose your arbitrary trad "ethics" on sport climbing. Jay I'm not trying to impose any ethics. I'm just objecting to you trying to impose your 'standards'.
No matter how many times in how many threads you write that, you'll still be wrong. This is not "[my] standard." As you have been told repeatedly by multiple posters, lowering is the standard practice on almost every sport route at almost every sport crag almost everywhere.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Jun 10, 2011, 6:27 PM)
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Colinhoglund
Jun 10, 2011, 6:33 PM
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The easy solution to almost any beginner anchoring question is this, Add before subtracting. Add a new connection to the bolts (etc) before removing the old one.
Ie.
-Add a safe connection to anchor
-Subtract belay on rope
-Add some form of "I dropped the rope" backup (clove on biner on harness works, or a doubled thread through and a knott*
-Subtract knott on harness
-Add properly setup rappel
-Subtract safe conection to anchor
* Page 36 section I
http://www.petzl.com/...s-sport-climbing.pdf
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JimTitt
Jun 10, 2011, 7:04 PM
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jt512 wrote: patto wrote: jt512 wrote: That's true. And just because you're a trad climber who doesn't know shit about how sport climbing is actually done doesn't mean it's non-standard. It means you should stay out of topics you know nothing about. And, for the zillionth time, you should stop trying to impose your arbitrary trad "ethics" on sport climbing. Jay I'm not trying to impose any ethics. I'm just objecting to you trying to impose your 'standards'. No matter how many times in how many threads you write that, you'll still be wrong. This is not "[my] standard." As you have been told repeatedly by multiple posters, lowering is the standard practice on almost every sport route at almost every sport crag almost everywhere. Jay
In my entire climbing career I´ve never seen anyone abseil off a sport route and the concept is somehow incomprehensible to me anyway. Why would anyone want to do this, surely the thing at the top is called a lower-off? (Sticking to abseil tonight to reinforce my Euro credentials )
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sandstoned
Jun 10, 2011, 8:23 PM
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jt512 wrote: patto wrote: jt512 wrote: That's true. And just because you're a trad climber who doesn't know shit about how sport climbing is actually done doesn't mean it's non-standard. It means you should stay out of topics you know nothing about. And, for the zillionth time, you should stop trying to impose your arbitrary trad "ethics" on sport climbing. Jay I'm not trying to impose any ethics. I'm just objecting to you trying to impose your 'standards'. No matter how many times in how many threads you write that, you'll still be wrong. This is not "[my] standard." As you have been told repeatedly by multiple posters, lowering is the standard practice on almost every sport route at almost every sport crag almost everywhere. Jay
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chris
Jun 12, 2011, 12:24 AM
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JimTitt wrote: jt512 wrote: patto wrote: jt512 wrote: That's true. And just because you're a trad climber who doesn't know shit about how sport climbing is actually done doesn't mean it's non-standard. It means you should stay out of topics you know nothing about. And, for the zillionth time, you should stop trying to impose your arbitrary trad "ethics" on sport climbing. Jay I'm not trying to impose any ethics. I'm just objecting to you trying to impose your 'standards'. No matter how many times in how many threads you write that, you'll still be wrong. This is not "[my] standard." As you have been told repeatedly by multiple posters, lowering is the standard practice on almost every sport route at almost every sport crag almost everywhere. Jay In my entire climbing career I´ve never seen anyone abseil off a sport route and the concept is somehow incomprehensible to me anyway. Why would anyone want to do this, surely the thing at the top is called a lower-off? (Sticking to abseil tonight to reinforce my Euro credentials )
I agree with Jay in this. At most areas, the climbers is expected to be lowered from the chains. 20 years ago this wasn't always the case, and special appeals were written in guide books. Today, with intentionally designed hardware, that's no longer the case at MOST destinations.
The only time I rappel instead of lower is if the rope will be stressed over a sharp edge or if my belayer and I will have difficulty communicating by the end of the pitch (high wind, pitch length, etc.).
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amyas
Jun 12, 2011, 3:11 AM
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Could you please come up to Alberta and explain this to everyone? Slowly, so that they will get it? People up here act like the rings are going to disintegrate overnight if anyone lowers off of them. I've felt the wrath of "ethic-ers" saying I'm wearing out the anchors a few times, yet have yet to see nylon cut through any stainless rings. Maybe I'll have to make my donations to bolt funds with a disclaimer to use the cash only for the anchors I must be destroying single handedly.
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