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swohletz
Jan 3, 2003, 12:34 PM
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I went to a gym last week where they would only let us belay on grigris, even lead belays Lead belaying on a grigri seemed really sketchy to me. I know a grigri works like an atc when open so it wouldn't have worried me...but especially when clipping--one hand to hold the lever open, one to pull the slack through on the climber side of the device, and one as a brake hand =3 hands. I only have 2. Is there a way to lead belay on a grigri that is safer? For now I'll stick to atc's and stay away from that gym....
Thanks!
[ This Message was edited by: swohletz on 2003-01-03 04:35 ]
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redpoint73
Jan 3, 2003, 12:47 PM
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If you pull the rope smoothly/slowly through the Grigri, you can actually throw rope out withut camming/locking up the device. This way you are still able to keep the a hand on the brake end of the rope.
If you throw rope out fast, as you inevitably will, the Grigri will cam up. You see most lead belayers holding the Grigri in "uncammed" position with one hand while throwing rope out with the other. Thus, no brake hand. Then they QUICKLY move the hand off the body of the Grigri (to brake end of rope), to make sure it locks if the leader falls.
It definitely takes a lot of practice and attention to what the leader is doing. Lead belaying with a Grigri is not for beginners. I have seen it done wrong many times. Some people hardly ever put their hand on the brake end of the rope. And just in case you don't know, the Grigri is not intended for use with trad gear. The belay is more "static" than with other devices, and transmits more force to your gear, possibly causing it to pull out.
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traddad
Jan 3, 2003, 2:11 PM
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YIPES!!!!!
My spousal unit/belayer almost ALWAYS belays me on lead with a Gri Gri due to our weight diffs. She NEVER takes her brake hand off.
PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE!!!! She can whip out slack a mile a minute.
A couple of hints:
1. Anticipate. Be rippin and ready to whip out the slack when your pard gets to the bolt/placement.
2. Have a little slack already in the system. Tight belays may intuitively feel safe, but they almost always keep you from making fast moves. Not too much slack near the ground though, for obvious reasons.
3. Be smooooth. No jerky-boy motions.
4. Use a smaller diameter rope. That 11 mil big wall cord won't flow as well as my dry treated 10 mil BD dental floss.
Of course some of these admonitions may not help you in Gym-land, but out doors, they work wonders for moi.
Traddad
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redpoint73
Jan 3, 2003, 2:43 PM
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Its good to hear confirmation that one can actually belay properly (keep hand on brake end of rope) with a Grigri with enough experience/practice. I am a ATC whore myself, so my observations are mostly vicarious. I've definitely seen it done both right and wrong. Although, I think the unintended Grigri camming is still inevitable at some point.
You think 10 mm is dental floss? Wow. Thats my "working a route and falling a lot" rope. What do you call those 9.5 mm ropes (besides "scary")?
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traddad
Jan 3, 2003, 2:53 PM
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Remember, I'm old.....
Back in my day (said with a weezing voice) 11 mil was the norm and 10.5s were "dental floss".
I also weigh close to 200lbs....
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jen_c
Jan 3, 2003, 2:53 PM
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This same topic was discussed at length over on the Southeastern Climbers Coalition message board:
http://server502.hypermart.net/seclimbers/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?s=3e15a31e368effff;act=ST;f=1;t=529
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valygrl
Jan 3, 2003, 3:58 PM
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Here's a way to lead belay with a GriGri without letting go of the rope. This is a little hard to explain, sorry.
I mostly use this technique for feeding rope for a clip. For 'regular' feeding while the leader is just moving up, not clipping, I just feed it like it's an ATC, and as long as you pay attention and the rope isn't to old and fat it works fine.
I'm right handed.
Brake (right) hand is holding the tail of the rope about 3-5 feet out from the GriGri. You then feed rope the usual GriGri way, which is to hold the cam down lightly (I've heard it recommended you just use your pinky) with the brake (right) hand while pulling rope out the top end of the GriGri with the other (left) hand. Get the brake hand off the cam ASAP. All the while, brake hand still has control of the rope, albeit a few feet down the tail. When you are finished feeding out that piece of rope to the leader, feed more rope through the brake hand, so you still have a loop between the brake hand and the GriGri.
So if the leader falls while you are holding the cam open to feed rope, you still have control of the brake end. Yeah it's a few feet down the rope. I tend not to use this technique until the leader is far enough off the ground where they won't deck from an extra 4 feet of fall.
Full disclosure: I have never had the leader fall while I had the cam open and caught them with the brake hand after the rope slipped through the GriGri. The GriGri has always caught the falls. I'm not sure if this is because the situation has never come up, or if the GriGri just really works that well. FYI, I've been belaying leaders this way for about 5 years, climbing in the gym 2-3x/week and outside every weekend. I learned this technique from the owner of the gym where I climb.
Flame on!
Anna
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stevematthys
Jan 3, 2003, 4:16 PM
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yes the grigri is auto-locking, which means that if the leader falls the grigri's cam will catch the rope and tighten down on it so that no rope can slide out. which arrests the leader's fall. with a some training and experience the grigri is almost fail safe
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flynnypek
Jan 3, 2003, 6:27 PM
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Seems like I need to practice a lot with a grigri before belaying someone...
By the way... I have noticed that when someone is belaying with a grigri... I feel more the impact when I fall. It seems to me that the grigri does not absorb the impact...
[ This Message was edited by: flynnypek on 2003-01-03 10:30 ]
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mountainmonkey
Jan 3, 2003, 6:40 PM
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most belay devices slip a little bit which lessens the impace. the grigri does not slip. the belayer should provide the dynamic belay by jumping up with the force of catching the climber. takes practice and a lot of experience to do it safely.
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traddad
Jan 3, 2003, 6:50 PM
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OK, this is #5 in my how to use a Gri-Gri for lead climbing tome
5. Push, don’t pull. That is, when you are feeding slack, use a short, fast, choppy stroke rather than yanking huge bites of rope out with your “feed hand”. Push the rope into the Gri-Gri with your brake hand to help keep the cam from actuating.
The more I think of it, the more I’m likely to get a second Gri-Gri. I HATE belaying a Gumby seconding a pitch from the top using an ATC. Invariably they’ll thrash, dangle and generally take FOREVER to get up. Hey, after 45 minutes in the sun, I want to take a nap. A Gri-Gri is great insurance when your mind starts to wander (read: great looking babe, er....female athlete redpointing .13c next route over)
Traddad
(Hey, I never said I wasn’t Cromagnon)
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edman1
Jan 3, 2003, 7:31 PM
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Keep in mind, Gri Gri's are fine for toproping and sport clipping, but I wouldn't advise using one for trad. The sudden braking of a Grigri causes significantly more "shock load" than an ATC, which in turn gives your gear a more likely chance of ripping out.
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valygrl
Jan 3, 2003, 7:33 PM
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Hey traddad, get a Reverso (or I guess a B52, but I haven't used that) - only a little bigger than the ATC, you can rig it for and autolocking belay from above, for one or two followers. And it costs like 1/3 as much as a second GriGri. Note, it does NOT autolock when belaying the leader, in that case it works the same as an ATC.
That way you can watch me climb.... (LOL)
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rprp
Jan 3, 2003, 8:10 PM
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I use a grigri for everything unless I just don't want the weight on a multi-pitch.
I hold the thing in my left hand so that my thumb can pull the cam down or push it up. All the rope work is done with my right hand. I'll hold the break side when I'm not pulling rope out the lead side. During a fall, I'll grab the break side, but the Grigri has always locked before I get there. But it is a good habit to have.
I don't buy this no Grigri on trad argument. The difference in slipage won't matter much. I never belay a leader straight off the anchor. So in a fall, I'll move. I only weigh 135 lbs. So if the Grigri is locked or not, my body gets pulled forward or up.
The force on the gear is going to depend far more on how much stretch the rope has. If you are worried about pulling gear, then get a rubber band rope. Then you can worry about hitting a ledge with the extra stretch instead.
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traddad
Jan 3, 2003, 8:41 PM
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Actually, I own a Reverso. Don’t like it much. Mostly I don’t like the way you have to rig it with a Marquis de Sade restraint system in order to lower a second when it’s in autolock mode. If you take away the (only) semi useful autolock mode, it’s an expensive ATC, and if you rig it backwards for a rappel (think night rappel with a skinny, dry treated rope), you better have an autoblock!! I have NEVER rapped on a set up with less friction. This will probably inflame the Reverso faithful (do you guys have a secret handshake?) but that’s my issue.
[ This Message was edited by: traddad on 2003-01-03 12:42 ]
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metoliusmunchkin
Jan 3, 2003, 8:52 PM
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[small]This topic was moved to the Gear Heads forum by metoliusmunchkin[/small]
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goingtohellquick
Jan 3, 2003, 9:23 PM
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Grigris are like the best for lots of climbing. They are inexpensivs and small. Just pull the rope through slowly and you shouldnt need the opperation to have a third hand put on.
Hospital=
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kamofladge
Jan 3, 2003, 9:50 PM
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I have used the gri gri for leading. And it all depends on your belayer. If he/she knows how to do it then do it! But if they don't know how to then it might not be a good thing to try. I do like all the info that is posted to help the less informed about it! I personally like it better than an atc. But it all depends on who I am with and where I am.
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swohletz
Jan 4, 2003, 5:33 AM
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Thanks guys and gals, that really helped me. I knew the value of grigris for belaying toprope or followers, but now I see better how lead belaying with it can still be safe....I'm still gonna stick to my atc, but I have learned something....which is good. Thanks for all the input
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beercanclimber
Jan 4, 2003, 5:43 AM
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the gri gri has now attained the rank of the shoe thread....overdone!
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rprp
Jan 4, 2003, 4:50 PM
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Hey Beercan, did you hear that they are planning to market a shoe with a built in Grigri...
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beyond_gravity
Jan 4, 2003, 5:12 PM
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I didn't read every post so sorry if this has allready been said...
if your going to hold down the cam, don't do it by pulling the level, just hold it down with the palm/bottem of your thumb, and make sure your hand is under the gri gri.
This way if the leader falls while you are feeding out slack the gri gri will just pop outta your hand and lock. The last thing you want to do is hold the cam down strongly.
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pywiak
Jan 4, 2003, 5:36 PM
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I use a grigri as my primary belay device. Like any belay device, it is critical to read the instructions first, and practice in a low-risk environment to understand proper operation and develop appropriate habits/skills.
I've observed two failure modes with the grigri: 1) rigging it backwards; and 2) treating it like a plate device (atc, tube, etc.) while catching a fall. In the first instance, the cam doesn't work, but you do obtain some friction (adequate for lowering/toproping, inadequate for a lead belay). In the second case, trying to hold the rope with brake hand can prevent the cam from engaging, allowing the rope to slide through the device. I saw a fellow drop an extra 15' as his belayer tried to belay a lead fall this way. The fall stopped when the belayer let go of the rope due to rope burn on the hand. Both cases qualify as operator errors.
I used a tube device with a pair of locking biners prior to using a grigri. In the course of a couple of years of belaying/lowering/rapping I carved deep grooves in both biners. Rope will cut aluminum (or steel) over time. Regularly inspect (and retire as needed) your equipment to avoid catastrophic failures.
I carry a Trango Jaws and a spare locking belay biner as backup device and for multi-rope/multi-pitch raps.
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