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Gunks Rappelling Accident 5/21/11
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bearbreeder


Jun 13, 2011, 4:14 AM
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Re: [patto] Gunks Rappelling Accident 5/21/11 [In reply to]
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in winds i saddle bag it, but on my extended sling with the ATC ... same type of setup as a hanging belay ... loops are in front of you ... ends tied to you belay loop


viciado


Jun 13, 2011, 2:10 PM
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Re: [billcoe_] Gunks Rappelling Accident 5/21/11 [In reply to]
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billcoe_ wrote:
"I just don't see how this happens".

I hazard to say that this very statement in itself is an explanation as to why "it" happens. We tend to not prepare for something we do not anticipate. This and incomplete recognition of the risks of rapelling result in poor or incomplete practice of safety measures.


Gmburns2000


Jun 13, 2011, 2:41 PM
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Re: [rgold] Gunks Rappelling Accident 5/21/11 [In reply to]
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rgold wrote:
Like many things in climbing, you can do it right thousands of times, screw it up once, and you're hosed. The problem with uneven ends is most acute when the rope reaches the ground with lots to spare. Then you look down and see a pile of rope and mistake it for both strands.

I don't find it at all difficult to see how this can happen. Be careful out there, folks.

This is essentially what happened to me a few years ago. We didn't confuse a pile on the ground as both ropes, however, as one went straight down below us and the other disappeared over a bulge a few feet to the other rope's left, but we saw that the one going straight down had easily hit the ground. "Knowing" that both ropes were 60m, I rapped down...only to find that the rope going over the bulge wasn't 60m after all. Shocked


edit: meant to say that I'm glad she's doing OK considering the circumstances. Thanks Josh for the update.


(This post was edited by Gmburns2000 on Jun 13, 2011, 2:44 PM)


Partner cracklover


Jun 13, 2011, 4:18 PM
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Re: [bearbreeder] Gunks Rappelling Accident 5/21/11 [In reply to]
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Shit, I'm really sorry to hear it. Glad J's going to be okay.

I'm sympathetic to those who say "I'm always looking down - how can this happen?" I'm always looking down, too. But I can think of one way this could happen anyway: If the climb has a lot of ledges, even small ones, the rope when tossed can get into lots of snarls. This could make spotting an end very difficult until you're right on top of it.

GO


losbill


Jun 13, 2011, 6:00 PM
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Re: [cracklover] Gunks Rappelling Accident 5/21/11 [In reply to]
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ditto what billcoe and several others have indicated, "If you don't think it can happen to you ..."


curt


Jun 14, 2011, 7:14 AM
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Re: [rgold] Gunks Rappelling Accident 5/21/11 [In reply to]
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rgold wrote:
It is true that tying knots in the ends of the rope is the only absolutely fool-proof way to prevent going off the end(s).

But knots can create problems too. In the Gunks, trees, sometimes rather large ones, grow out from the cliff, and sometimes thrown ropes go through the trees. They are usually not too difficult to pull through the tree, but with a knot in the end of the rope, a single Y-shaped branch can effectively capture the rope.

There you are, hanging on rappel, with the rope going back up above you, or straight horizontally out behind you, into a tree, and you can't pull it out. Major epic potential, which you certainly wouldn't want to deal with with an incoming T-storm.

The tree problem can be avoided by keeping the ropes with you (of course, then you can't see whether they reach the next stance). But this too can be very slow if the flaked rope you are carrying tangles---something that happens quite a bit in my experience.

As for speeding up in bad conditions, I've found this to usually be a mistake. You have to be disciplined, methodical, and above all efficient, but rushing will frequently get you into more trouble and in many cases is only slightly faster.

Something I think we don't do nearly enough is to lower the first person down when the conditions are trying. No ropes to tangle and hang up, no possibility of going off the ends even in rope-stretchers, the ability to climb up and/or sideways if needed, all with total security. This may not be a good idea if communication is going to be very difficult, but otherwise I think it makes a lot of sense.

I agree, particularly when it's quite windy.

Curt


patto


Jun 14, 2011, 9:17 AM
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Re: [cracklover] Gunks Rappelling Accident 5/21/11 [In reply to]
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In reply to:
This could make spotting an end very difficult until you're right on top of it.

People keep talking about snarls etc stopping you from seeing an end. As long as you can spot the two ropes extending below you for several meters then you are fine to continue for a couple meters.

YOU DON'T NEED TO SEE THE END OF THE ROPE.

Don't rap into a snarl. If need be lock off, go hands free and FIX the snarl.


blueeyedclimber


Jun 14, 2011, 1:00 PM
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Re: [rgold] Gunks Rappelling Accident 5/21/11 [In reply to]
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rgold wrote:
But knots can create problems too. In the Gunks, trees, sometimes rather large ones, grow out from the cliff, and sometimes thrown ropes go through the trees. They are usually not too difficult to pull through the tree, but with a knot in the end of the rope, a single Y-shaped branch can effectively capture the rope.

I feel like the Gunks is a unique area and requires unique considerations. First of all, I primarily use double ropes, so wondering if the ends are even is not something I need to consider (at least once i have established that my new ropes were measured correctly, that isWink).

This is what I do 99% of the time at the gunks. Generally speaking, the rappel almost always goes over some kind of roof. I take enough rope to clear the roof and throw it over. I yell rope, but it's more of a formality than anything else (it is useful to know if your rappel is over a climb. If I am not sure, I am more careful about yelling and/or looking to see if anyone is down there). Once the rope is over the roof, I lower the rest. With the exception of a few of the raps at the Gunks (i.e Bonnies Roof), it will undoubtedly get hung up on a ledge, I just fix it as I go down. By lowering it, I prevent the follwing:

1) Throwing on someone. I have had a rope thrown on me while belaying. My wife has endured it while leading. I never heard her swear so much.
2) Getting caught in one of the many trees that grow out of the cliff.

With the roofs that can impede your ability to hear or see someone below, I believe this is the best solution.

As for knots, we have one in the rope that we are not pulling. If you are not throwing them, the knot is "knot" an issue. I also generally don't have to worry about wind, because the Gunks is generally not windy (at least not compared to areas like Red Rocks).

Josh


welle


Jun 18, 2011, 12:38 AM
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Re: [rgold] Gunks Rappelling Accident 5/21/11 [In reply to]
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rgold wrote:
Something I think we don't do nearly enough is to lower the first person down when the conditions are trying. No ropes to tangle and hang up, no possibility of going off the ends even in rope-stretchers, the ability to climb up and/or sideways if needed, all with total security. This may not be a good idea if communication is going to be very difficult, but otherwise I think it makes a lot of sense.

Another trick to ensure against rapping off uneven rope ends would be for the second climber to rig their rappel (or at least autoblock in into the rope) before the first climber takes off. This way both rope strands will be locked in and act as individual ropes. If the climber raps off shorter end, he/she could keep on rapping on the longer end. This will still not prevent from rapping off ends if the rope is too short for a given rap...


pdpcardsfan


Jun 18, 2011, 3:54 AM
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Re: [funnelator] Gunks Rappelling Accident 5/21/11 [In reply to]
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anyone other than me tie a stopper knot in the ends of their rope before they rap?


moose_droppings


Jun 18, 2011, 4:42 AM
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Re: [pdpcardsfan] Gunks Rappelling Accident 5/21/11 [In reply to]
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pdpcardsfan wrote:
anyone other than me tie a stopper knot in the ends of their rope before they rap?

I do......sometimes.


marc801


Jun 18, 2011, 5:12 AM
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Re: [moose_droppings] Gunks Rappelling Accident 5/21/11 [In reply to]
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moose_droppings wrote:
pdpcardsfan wrote:
anyone other than me tie a stopper knot in the ends of their rope before they rap?

I do......sometimes.
It depends where and what the conditions are. In some climbing areas, the stopper knots are a distinctly bad idea.


patto


Jun 18, 2011, 6:02 AM
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Re: [marc801] Gunks Rappelling Accident 5/21/11 [In reply to]
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I never tie stopper knots unless I know that the rap is longer than the rope, and even then I don't always do so.

I watch wear I'm going when I rap, both the terrain and my ropes. I'm not going to rap off the end if I am watching what I am doing.


onrockandice


Jun 23, 2011, 8:38 PM
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Re: [rgold] Gunks Rappelling Accident 5/21/11 [In reply to]
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I was in a situation on a huge slab during very high winds that prevented us from tossing the rope without extreme risk to rope capture anywhere but where we needed it.

We stuck to our guns though and tied the ends together. Then we lowered as much line as we felt safe. One climber would lower off and the other would hold the end of the rope and pay out more as the person on rappel needed it. Once the the person on rap reached the midpoint of the line the person above would drop the tied end down. The end was tied around the rope so it just slid right dow to the person on rappel and stayed there until the person on rappel slipped it over their heads.

It was a simple but effective way of rappel in bad circumstances and it kept the rope manageable at all times.

We adapted the habit of taking the knot over our heads clipping a carabiner to it and then clipping the carabiner to our harness. Rarely did we ever need to unclip the carabiner and it kept rope management pretty .... welll .... manageable.


Partner cracklover


Jun 24, 2011, 2:54 PM
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Re: [onrockandice] Gunks Rappelling Accident 5/21/11 [In reply to]
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onrockandice wrote:
I was in a situation on a huge slab during very high winds that prevented us from tossing the rope without extreme risk to rope capture anywhere but where we needed it.

We stuck to our guns though and tied the ends together. Then we lowered as much line as we felt safe. One climber would lower off and the other would hold the end of the rope and pay out more as the person on rappel needed it. Once the the person on rap reached the midpoint of the line the person above would drop the tied end down. The end was tied around the rope so it just slid right dow to the person on rappel and stayed there until the person on rappel slipped it over their heads.

It was a simple but effective way of rappel in bad circumstances and it kept the rope manageable at all times.

We adapted the habit of taking the knot over our heads clipping a carabiner to it and then clipping the carabiner to our harness. Rarely did we ever need to unclip the carabiner and it kept rope management pretty .... welll .... manageable.

Sounds like a reasonable solution. Although the one suggested by RG seems even better in a high-wind situation: Lower the first party, who can then hold onto the rope ends until the second party has rapped.

GO


bearbreeder


Jun 24, 2011, 3:46 PM
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Re: [cracklover] Gunks Rappelling Accident 5/21/11 [In reply to]
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the problem with lowering in a high wind environment is ... well the wind, which can hinder communication

unless the climber can clearly communicate with the belayer (or is it lowerer) ... then you have a real potential issue ...


patto


Jun 24, 2011, 4:01 PM
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Re: [bearbreeder] Gunks Rappelling Accident 5/21/11 [In reply to]
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I have not been lowered off a climb ever. I can only once remember lowering somebodcy else off a climb. This is all despite the fact have informally guided NOOBs numerous times. I give beginners bottom belays.

Unless you have perfect line of sight I would avoid it. When I'm descending I want control. Rapping is mostly safer and doesn't wear you rope like lowering can.


jsh


Jul 19, 2011, 6:06 PM
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Re: [patto] Gunks Rappelling Accident 5/21/11 [In reply to]
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As the woman who went 'plunk' I thought I'd clear a thing or two up:

First: rope. It was bipattern, and a well-used rope of my partner's. She had used it for year(s), and we'd just rapped off of Middle Earth earlier in the day. The rope was not the problem. Somehow it got uneven, but the rope itself is and was fine.

Second: rain. Indeed, we knew some rain was moving in, but it was warm out and we were one pitch off the deck - not worried at all about getting a bit wet, and not in any sense of hurry. The rain was not the problem.

So what was the problem? 100% pilot error -- me. I did not make sure the rope end was down. No matter how many hundreds of times I've checked before, the ends weren't down this time, and I fell.

The injuries: burst fracture of L1, a pleural effusion, and an open fracture of the calcaneous. A bunch of titanium later, I'll be fine.

I feel particularly qualified to respond to the I just don't see how this happens as a neuroscientist. The answer is very simple, although as the attitudes/responses towards them demonstrate, it is also hard to accept:

Humans are fallible, and our attention is imperfect.

There are thousands of experiments and papers and such, as well as accidents on all kinds of scales, to establish this fact. No one is exempt, as appealing as it is to think you might be. You're human. It's just a matter of probability of occurrence, and the penalty if you get 'caught'. Just as if you were driving on the highway - you will make mistakes; it's just a matter of whether you pay a big price, or not.

Human fallibility is why we tie knots in the ends of ropes, thought that isn't always the answer. It's why the GriGri exists, though that sometimes causes problems of its own. Et cetera.

There's no substitute for vigilant attention, but we also have to accept that even vigilance itself is not absolute.


iknowfear


Jul 19, 2011, 6:42 PM
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Re: [jsh] Gunks Rappelling Accident 5/21/11 [In reply to]
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jsh wrote:
As the woman who went 'plunk' I thought I'd clear a thing or two up:

First: rope. It was bipattern, and a well-used rope of my partner's. She had used it for year(s), and we'd just rapped off of Middle Earth earlier in the day. The rope was not the problem. Somehow it got uneven, but the rope itself is and was fine.

Second: rain. Indeed, we knew some rain was moving in, but it was warm out and we were one pitch off the deck - not worried at all about getting a bit wet, and not in any sense of hurry. The rain was not the problem.

So what was the problem? 100% pilot error -- me. I did not make sure the rope end was down. No matter how many hundreds of times I've checked before, the ends weren't down this time, and I fell.

The injuries: burst fracture of L1, a pleural effusion, and an open fracture of the calcaneous. A bunch of titanium later, I'll be fine.

I feel particularly qualified to respond to the I just don't see how this happens as a neuroscientist. The answer is very simple, although as the attitudes/responses towards them demonstrate, it is also hard to accept:

Humans are fallible, and our attention is imperfect.

There are thousands of experiments and papers and such, as well as accidents on all kinds of scales, to establish this fact. No one is exempt, as appealing as it is to think you might be. You're human. It's just a matter of probability of occurrence, and the penalty if you get 'caught'. Just as if you were driving on the highway - you will make mistakes; it's just a matter of whether you pay a big price, or not.

Human fallibility is why we tie knots in the ends of ropes, thought that isn't always the answer. It's why the GriGri exists, though that sometimes causes problems of its own. Et cetera.

There's no substitute for vigilant attention, but we also have to accept that even vigilance itself is not absolute.

thanx for the post! and get well soon!


moose_droppings


Jul 19, 2011, 6:59 PM
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Re: [iknowfear] Gunks Rappelling Accident 5/21/11 [In reply to]
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iknowfear wrote:
jsh wrote:
As the woman who went 'plunk' I thought I'd clear a thing or two up:

First: rope. It was bipattern, and a well-used rope of my partner's. She had used it for year(s), and we'd just rapped off of Middle Earth earlier in the day. The rope was not the problem. Somehow it got uneven, but the rope itself is and was fine.

Second: rain. Indeed, we knew some rain was moving in, but it was warm out and we were one pitch off the deck - not worried at all about getting a bit wet, and not in any sense of hurry. The rain was not the problem.

So what was the problem? 100% pilot error -- me. I did not make sure the rope end was down. No matter how many hundreds of times I've checked before, the ends weren't down this time, and I fell.

The injuries: burst fracture of L1, a pleural effusion, and an open fracture of the calcaneous. A bunch of titanium later, I'll be fine.

I feel particularly qualified to respond to the I just don't see how this happens as a neuroscientist. The answer is very simple, although as the attitudes/responses towards them demonstrate, it is also hard to accept:

Humans are fallible, and our attention is imperfect.

There are thousands of experiments and papers and such, as well as accidents on all kinds of scales, to establish this fact. No one is exempt, as appealing as it is to think you might be. You're human.
It's just a matter of probability of occurrence, and the penalty if you get 'caught'. Just as if you were driving on the highway - you will make mistakes; it's just a matter of whether you pay a big price, or not.

Human fallibility is why we tie knots in the ends of ropes, thought that isn't always the answer. It's why the GriGri exists, though that sometimes causes problems of its own. Et cetera.

There's no substitute for vigilant attention, but we also have to accept that even vigilance itself is not absolute.

thanx for the post! and get well soon!

Though what you bolded is important, I bolded and underlined what I thought is pertinent to all of us as well.

jsh, thank you for your follow up and insight. Hope everything heals up for you and your back at it again soon.


onrockandice


Jul 19, 2011, 8:16 PM
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I learned a hard lesson on this a few weeks ago. I was on rappel and I yarded enough line through to more than reach the set of anchors I wanted to reach. I was actually at the top of a crag retrieving gear on a climb we backed off of. The top bolt was mank and we lowered off. The anchors were way right of the climb (that sucked) so I had to lower off from rap anchors that were 20 feet above the anchors for that route. I didn't mid-point the rope. I just pulled 80 feet through, more than twice what I'd need.

Well I reached the anchors and then my partner changed plans on me. We now had a situation where he wanted a full length rappel and as we looked and realized I didn't have enough rope... We decided on the spot this truism that is our new habit.

* When on rappel, even if you are going 10 feet make that habit of getting to mid-point. Even though you don't need it and it is over-kill things can change at any time and you could then be in a real pickel or at least causing yourself tons of trouble. I tied off 10 feet or so above then tied into the short-end and put my gri-gri on the long-end and lowered off. Easy cure to a foolish mistake.


bearbreeder


Jul 20, 2011, 7:00 AM
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the method of going to midpoint is simple ... put one end through the rings a bit .... have the other end in hand ... pull both through at the same time ...

still no substitute for knots when you cant see the ends on the ground


Partner rgold


Jul 20, 2011, 3:02 PM
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Frankly, if I had a well-marked middle, installed the rope with that middle in place, and knew from experience that the ends had to reach the ground (all features of Julie's accident) I doubt I would have given much attention to the ends once on rappel.

Pilot error, I suppose by definition, but this is situation that would have caught many climbers, maybe even most climbers, unaware. It does give some ammunition to those who always knot their rope ends.

Julie, I don't know if you have any insight about this, but I am sure many people would be interested in hearing about what might have caused the ropes to become uneven after you got on rappel.

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