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j_ung
Jul 24, 2011, 11:15 PM
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superchuffer wrote: In reply to: This is such a bullshit argument that always gets made. I love dogs, and I've met some very well behaved and trained pits, and doberman's, etc, that I've really enjoyed, that have played well with my dog, etc. But here's the thing. I've met tons of badly trained golden retrievers. You know what they do? They pull on the leash, they jump up on people trying to lick their face, they chase deer and don't come back when called, they steal food, won't give back the other dogs ball. I've met plenty of badly trained border collies and aussie shepherds. You know what they do? They pull on the leash, they run around barking at other people or dogs, nipping at heels, they chase deer and don't come back when called. I've met plenty of badly trained springer/english spaniels or weimeriener/vieslas. You know what they do? They pull on the leash, they bark at people, steal other dog's toys, run after birds and squirrels without coming back when called, etc. You know what all these breeds don't typically do when not well trained? Kill people or other dogs. You know what pit bulls have a long history of doing when not properly trained? Kill people and other dogs. Like I said, I really have nothing against pit bulls per se. But it's the exception and not the rule for a dog to be violent/deadly when not well trained. And therefore using an argument that goes "its not the dog but the owner", while true, isn't necessarily a useful one, because there are scores of other dog breeds that aren't as overtly and repeatedly dangerous when not well trained. Which means that, more than likely, we as a society need to rethink how we handle breeds with that kind of history. well put. i owned a rot. that i had to get it's face the second it got out of line, if you give rots and pits an inch, they take a mile, then they think they own you. to the person that said pits are smart, i don't think so. they are a lot things, but problem-solving on past for future consequences to assessi a situation isn't one of them. a rot will stare you down while deciding what to do, pitbulls just change and ask questions later.
You're both basing your assessments your personal experience. There isn't anything inherently wrong with that, but in this case, it's not entirely correct.
First of all, "Pit Bull" isn't a breed. It's a class of three breeds: American Pit Bull Terrier, American Staffordshire Terrier and Staffordshire Bull Terrier. This is the website for the American Temperament Test Society. If you'd like actual statistics on breeds, feel free to dive in. If you're not so inclined, the American Pit Bull Terrier outscores the Springer Spaniel, Golden Retriever, Aussie Shepherd, Border Collie, Vizsla and Weimaraner. The American Staffordshire Terrier is neck and neck with them and the Staffordshire Bull Terrier is way ahead of them all.
The English Spaniel, however, is better than the lot of them. Head and shoulders above, in fact. So I'll grant you that one.
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squierbypetzl
Moderator
Jul 24, 2011, 11:20 PM
Post #102 of 298
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j_ung wrote: The English Spaniel, however, is better than the lot of them. Head and shoulders above, in fact. So I'll grant you that one.
Cocker spaniel or springer spaniel?
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chilli
Jul 24, 2011, 11:20 PM
Post #103 of 298
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just to be clear, altelis, you and i are making 2 entirely different points here. i'd really like to see the data behind yours by the way.
my statement was not whether or not someone with good intentions was a lousy trainer of a pit. it was that statistically people have been getting/raising them for the wrong reasons (see Sacks, 2000 JAVMA). therefore the positive reinforcement (or lack of punishment) for what we would consider poor behavior is a factor.
both the MMWR's and a retrospective study by the CDC clearly state that pits and rotties are over-represented for fatalities and bites on people (there's no denying that part) for which the breed was identified... i'll say that part again... for which the breed was identified. AAHA has released data showing that more than half of non-fatal dog bites have no report for the breed. This statement is also supported by the CDC studies which went into several paragraphs about the lack of appropriate data for other cases in the study.
In other cases of fatalities and dog bites inflicted by over-represented breeds, the CDC (in an effort to avoid bias) has included in its report things like carrying a baby into the parents' room, which unfortunately proved fatal; or septicemia subsequent to a bite on the arm. The MMWR's and CDC also have plenty of reports of fatal attacks by huskies, boxers, labs, and, yes, 26 golden retriever attacks during the observation period.
Again however, the same theme is repeated by multiple sources: the choice of dog breed for specific untoward purposes reinforces the skewed data (and it doesn't even mention the umbrella categorization of pitbull breeds). in other words, the reputation and subsequent breeding toward that end is a huge part of the problem.
really when it comes down to it, you're going to have assholes looking for some kick-ass guard/fighting dog no matter what. outlawing a single breed simply: A) is not going to prevent the movement underground of the same activities; and B) easily leaves room for a shift in focus to a new breed of dog for the same purpose (on the other side of the coin, as evidence, see the shift law enforcement breeds). Keep in mind that I'm not saying that i mind breed restrictions for specific areas. i do understand the pressures on urban communities with regard to dogs. My point is that simply blaming the intrinsic nature of a particular breed is fallacious when there are so many more factors involved that anecdotal evidence fails to account for.
(This post was edited by chilli on Jul 24, 2011, 11:22 PM)
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chilli
Jul 24, 2011, 11:33 PM
Post #104 of 298
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i'm very sorry to hear about your story. that sucks all around. we actually had a very similar case, in which a female mixed breed dog was euthanized and submitted for necropsy for attacking its owners (a neck wound almost killed the girl). it turned out there was a tumor in the dogs brain.
i'm not saying your judgement is entirely unfounded. no one knew your dog like you. it's just handy to keep in mind that there are cases like yours, or like this mutt, that may be exemplary, or may be due to extenuating circumstances. i don't pretend to know personally until i see solid evidence.
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sungam
Jul 24, 2011, 11:44 PM
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j_ung wrote: sungam wrote: Fuck pittbulls. Those things are bred to be violent. It's in the core of their nature to attack anything that they think they can beat. Mix that with the fact that they are cocky by nature, and you understand why smart countries like the UK have made them illegal. Your post is factually incorrect. Fighting dogs were bred to be aggressive toward other dogs. Since "blood sports" often required handlers to be in the pit with the animals, signs of human aggression were systematically culled from those breeds.
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altelis
Jul 24, 2011, 11:51 PM
Post #106 of 298
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Sorry, no data, just personal experience. I'm not saying that implying my experience is as good as data, I just don't have data, and honestly never really knew data on this existed.
And, I also don't deny there have been attacks by goldens, labs, etc. I've seen aggressive dogs of all breeds, though generally there is some history (blindness, abuse, tumor) to "explain" the behavior.
I'm not sure how I fall on regulation of breeds. My point was more that the general argument of "it's not the breed it's the owner" seems, generally, to be contrary to my experience. Your explanation that it's the owners looking for aggressive dogs reinforcing those traits through their interaction with the dog, as well as through selective breeding isnt (as I understand it) fully separate from my point. I think mine includes yours.
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Kartessa
Jul 24, 2011, 11:53 PM
Post #107 of 298
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Way to hijack my thread.
Can we please get back to everyone's 3rd party 20/20 hindsight on how I should have handled my situation.
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granite_grrl
Jul 25, 2011, 12:26 AM
Post #109 of 298
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sungam wrote: Uh... Guys? Can I give you some friendly advice? Don't start on Ma. Usually I wouldn't say anything but the chance of survival... It's just too low.
You're trying to say there's more than one reason we call her macougar?
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sungam
Jul 25, 2011, 1:02 AM
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granite_grrl wrote: sungam wrote: Uh... Guys? Can I give you some friendly advice? Don't start on Ma. Usually I wouldn't say anything but the chance of survival... It's just too low. You're trying to say there's more than one reason we call her macougar? 
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granite_grrl
Jul 25, 2011, 1:14 AM
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sungam wrote: granite_grrl wrote: sungam wrote: Uh... Guys? Can I give you some friendly advice? Don't start on Ma. Usually I wouldn't say anything but the chance of survival... It's just too low. You're trying to say there's more than one reason we call her macougar? I dunno, ask Darkside... He was there too
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macherry
Jul 25, 2011, 1:16 AM
Post #112 of 298
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granite_grrl wrote: sungam wrote: granite_grrl wrote: sungam wrote: Uh... Guys? Can I give you some friendly advice? Don't start on Ma. Usually I wouldn't say anything but the chance of survival... It's just too low. You're trying to say there's more than one reason we call her macougar? I dunno, ask Darkside... He was there too Kinky!
good times
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sungam
Jul 25, 2011, 1:38 AM
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macherry wrote: granite_grrl wrote: sungam wrote: granite_grrl wrote: sungam wrote: Uh... Guys? Can I give you some friendly advice? Don't start on Ma. Usually I wouldn't say anything but the chance of survival... It's just too low. You're trying to say there's more than one reason we call her macougar? I dunno, ask Darkside... He was there too Kinky! good times
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htotsu
Jul 25, 2011, 3:00 AM
Post #114 of 298
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ceebo wrote: j_ung wrote: ceebo wrote: Back when i was 20 and doing some labour work.. a cross breed ankle biter thing was plodding along. I bent down to give it a stroke and the fucker bit me. I jabbed it in the face with the but end of a sledge hammer but the game little fucker went for me again. Next visual was the little rat flying 6 foot through the air. My brother had ran over and booted the fucker in the ribs. I felt a bit sorry for the dog, but it was so damn funny how far it flew. Maybe it learned not to bite people.. that is if it didn't die of internal bleeding. Either I'm trolled, I'm you're a garden variety piece of shit. Oh i'm sorry, i missed the memo on befriend the dog that tried to rip my hand off. Since you're so eager to turn the other cheek.. i'm going to use that to my advantage and proceed in calling you a delusional moronic pacifist.
You know, j_ung, it was such a ridiculous story that I fully assumed it was bullshit and totally ignored it. Because, really, who is that big an asshole? I mean, what idiot human just reaches down to pet a strange dog without letting it smell her hand first or anything? Just goes to pet it? The dog, perhaps unsure whether this was friend or foe, perhaps sensing that this was a total idiot asshole, perhaps smelling the fecal matter on the hand from a lifetime of poor wiping habits, or most likely a combination of the three, naturally bit the human. Because who wants to be touched by a total idiot asshole who smells like shit?
Said smelling-of-shit idiot asshole, who instigates the whole thing, then gets mad at the dog. For defending itself against an idiot asshole who smells like shit. Go figure.
Now, it's one thing to defend yourself against an attacking animal, but it's another to go further than absolutely necessary, to be excessively violent about it. I mean, seriously, WTF? What kind of sick, inbred motherf*ckers could possibly raise someone to turn out like this?
It's yet another thing to gleefully report that one's idiot asshole brother went out of his way to approach, then kick a small dog while it was lying down. I mean, who but a pathetic, bully, micropenis-having son of a bitch would do that? And what kind of smelling-of-shit, idiot, asshole sister of his would post about this entire episode, showcasing her own raw stupidity and how deeply, deeply f*cked up she is -- along with her micropenis-having, abusive brother's interest in beating on things that are lying down and are smaller than himself -- in a public internet forum?
I mean, who on earth could be that much of a f*cking, stupid, idiotic asshole? Who still doesn't know how to wipe her own ass?
Oh. Well. Now we know.
(editing to add that upon rereading the original story, the brother kicked it while it was re-attacking (though I would say "defending") not while lying down. But you know what? I'll leave my interpretation as it stands because it's just so colorful. And because they're both still assholes. Toodles.)
(This post was edited by htotsu on Jul 25, 2011, 3:11 AM)
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macherry
Jul 25, 2011, 3:04 AM
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sungam wrote: macherry wrote: granite_grrl wrote: sungam wrote: granite_grrl wrote: sungam wrote: Uh... Guys? Can I give you some friendly advice? Don't start on Ma. Usually I wouldn't say anything but the chance of survival... It's just too low. You're trying to say there's more than one reason we call her macougar? I dunno, ask Darkside... He was there too Kinky! good times I recall a young lady being there... Daughter/niece/some relative?
ack, my daughter. no longer at home, at uni. lives in a house with a band. crazy kid. she now kicks asses and takes names.
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sungam
Jul 25, 2011, 3:52 AM
Post #116 of 298
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macherry wrote: sungam wrote: macherry wrote: granite_grrl wrote: sungam wrote: granite_grrl wrote: sungam wrote: Uh... Guys? Can I give you some friendly advice? Don't start on Ma. Usually I wouldn't say anything but the chance of survival... It's just too low. You're trying to say there's more than one reason we call her macougar? I dunno, ask Darkside... He was there too Kinky! good times I recall a young lady being there... Daughter/niece/some relative? ack, my daughter. no longer at home, at uni. lives in a house with a band. crazy kid. she now kicks asses and takes names.
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ChalkIsCheap
Jul 25, 2011, 4:07 PM
Post #117 of 298
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Kartessa wrote: Way to hijack my thread. Can we please get back to everyone's 3rd party 20/20 hindsight on how I should have handled my situation.
Zip-lock baggies and double wrap your Ham Sammich, hungry dogs can smell that shit a mile away. 1.609344 Kilometers if you are Canadian.
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majid_sabet
Jul 25, 2011, 4:34 PM
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if this was a bear or some mt lion, this whole story would be a different thing
ohh my god
I was attacked and survived
my belayer was killed and eaten by.....while i was clipping # 3
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Kartessa
Jul 25, 2011, 5:30 PM
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Majid, any accident reports involving rabid crag dogs?
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majid_sabet
Jul 25, 2011, 7:01 PM
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Kartessa wrote: Majid, any accident reports involving rabid crag dogs?
I was in Texas and climbing a week ago and saw more dogs running around than in any other place worldwide and I do see your point but you know dogs are silly and do stupid things. I seen rescue dog biting our rescue rope while we were doing rescue training .
you either have to love them or kill them
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dumbsocrates
Jul 25, 2011, 8:34 PM
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So about pits: I lived with one for 2 years, and it was the sweetest dog EVAH! I mean, you could pull on his tail, jump on his back, staple his ears... he is a sweetie pie! So I agree that it depends how you train your dog.
I also agree that an annoying dog has no place at the crag. It should not be misbehaving without some serious apologetic comments from the owner.
Oh wait.... my Groenendael wants to contribute to the discussion:
"Hello! I'm Indie, my mistress' crag dog. I enjoy spending time outside, and I'm glad she is the outside kinda gal. I can go up a class 3 scramble better, swifter, and certainly more gracefully than her, but my lack of opposing thumbs prevents me from scaling those vertical walls she climbs. When she goes up the wall, I usually lay down by a tree and go to sleep. But once in a while I will bark at approaching strangers, because she is hot and I'm being naturally protective (that's probably why she feeds me). No worries... I won't bite you. My message to you, my two-legged climbing friend, is to have it in your heart to tolerate me if you run into us, because I tolerate you. Too often you are a noisy, pot-smoking, ignorant, rude, self-absorbed bunch that leaves trash at the crag and doesn't pick up your own droppings that you manage to deposit not even a few feet off the trail (my mistress always picks up mine!). Be a darling then, and pat me when you see me and for Pete's sake stop staring at her ass! Thank you."
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JoeHamilton
Jul 25, 2011, 11:52 PM
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That was great .
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stoneguy
Jul 26, 2011, 1:55 AM
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I used to get attacked by a neighbors German Shepherd from the age of four to about nine. So now I,m like the dog whisperer. I understand them. They usually go for the face (70%) sometimes upper arm, sometimes shoulder, but mostly around the eye or cheek. Mostly right face rather than left.
Solution...no clue. Maybe just make sure your pets are small enough so you can toss them out a window.
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macherry
Jul 26, 2011, 2:06 AM
Post #124 of 298
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dumbsocrates wrote: So about pits: I lived with one for 2 years, and it was the sweetest dog EVAH! I mean, you could pull on his tail, jump on his back, staple his ears... he is a sweetie pie! So I agree that it depends how you train your dog. I also agree that an annoying dog has no place at the crag. It should not be misbehaving without some serious apologetic comments from the owner. Oh wait.... my Groenendael wants to contribute to the discussion: "Hello! I'm Indie, my mistress' crag dog. I enjoy spending time outside, and I'm glad she is the outside kinda gal. I can go up a class 3 scramble better, swifter, and certainly more gracefully than her, but my lack of opposing thumbs prevents me from scaling those vertical walls she climbs. When she goes up the wall, I usually lay down by a tree and go to sleep. But once in a while I will bark at approaching strangers, because she is hot and I'm being naturally protective (that's probably why she feeds me). No worries... I won't bite you. My message to you, my two-legged climbing friend, is to have it in your heart to tolerate me if you run into us, because I tolerate you. Too often you are a noisy, pot-smoking, ignorant, rude, self-absorbed bunch that leaves trash at the crag and doesn't pick up your own droppings that you manage to deposit not even a few feet off the trail (my mistress always picks up mine!). Be a darling then, and pat me when you see me and for Pete's sake stop staring at her ass! Thank you."
yeah, i'm going to stop and pet you when you're barking at me.........................right!!!!!!!!!!!
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binrat
Jul 26, 2011, 2:16 AM
Post #125 of 298
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Kartessa wrote: Hey brah, The next time your dog charges me and bites me in the leg, ill cut your fucking toprope. Keep your mutt on a leash, we don't need him shitting all over the crag either. Ya got me?
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