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Danx
Aug 15, 2011, 9:21 PM
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kennoyce
Aug 15, 2011, 10:09 PM
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Danx wrote: Is it worth using Retainers on sling draws? on short quickdraws for sport climbing I think their really helpful holding the sling tight to clip easier, but on long slings for trad does it really make much difference? Is there a high chance of the caribiner spinning after being clipped?(resulting in a higher chance to unclip) Also if the answer is yes, whats the best size o rings to use (roughly) for a dmm spectre 2 caribiner?
You should never use retainers (as you call them) on open slings, I know of at least one death that has occured as a result. See the following:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/videos/play.php?i=20
http://www.petzl.com/us/node/9886
edit to add link to the death:
http://www.register-herald.com/...l-in-New-River-Gorge
There's not much info in the news report, but she anchored in with two shoulder length slings, both with petzl strings on them, and was unlucky enough to have had both of the biners rotate to where the strings were the only thing holding the biners to the slings.
(This post was edited by kennoyce on Aug 15, 2011, 10:16 PM)
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Danx
Aug 16, 2011, 4:43 PM
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jt512
Aug 16, 2011, 4:48 PM
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Danx wrote: kennoyce wrote: Danx wrote: Is it worth using Retainers on sling draws? on short quickdraws for sport climbing I think their really helpful holding the sling tight to clip easier, but on long slings for trad does it really make much difference? Is there a high chance of the caribiner spinning after being clipped?(resulting in a higher chance to unclip) Also if the answer is yes, whats the best size o rings to use (roughly) for a dmm spectre 2 caribiner? You should never use retainers (as you call them) on open slings, I know of at least one death that has occured as a result. See the following: http://www.ukclimbing.com/videos/play.php?i=20 http://www.petzl.com/us/node/9886 edit to add link to the death: http://www.register-herald.com/...l-in-New-River-Gorge There's not much info in the news report, but she anchored in with two shoulder length slings, both with petzl strings on them, and was unlucky enough to have had both of the biners rotate to where the strings were the only thing holding the biners to the slings. A good point about safety... but surely this is the fault of the climbers for not checking their gear and not actually a problem with using retainers. I can't see this problem happening mid climb after racking up correctly?
That fallacy is known as the argument from ignorance.
Jay
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Danx
Aug 16, 2011, 5:17 PM
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jt512
Aug 16, 2011, 5:24 PM
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Danx wrote: I am assuming by that comment that you mean the sling can go through the gate mid climb?
No. By that comment, I meant that the fact that you can't imagine something could be due to a failure of your imagination.
Putting retainers on open slings is a dangerous and useless practice. If you want slings with captive carabiners, buy slings designed for that purpose.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Aug 16, 2011, 5:26 PM)
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Danx
Aug 16, 2011, 5:40 PM
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kennoyce
Aug 16, 2011, 5:42 PM
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Danx wrote: kennoyce wrote: Danx wrote: Is it worth using Retainers on sling draws? on short quickdraws for sport climbing I think their really helpful holding the sling tight to clip easier, but on long slings for trad does it really make much difference? Is there a high chance of the caribiner spinning after being clipped?(resulting in a higher chance to unclip) Also if the answer is yes, whats the best size o rings to use (roughly) for a dmm spectre 2 caribiner? You should never use retainers (as you call them) on open slings, I know of at least one death that has occured as a result. See the following: http://www.ukclimbing.com/videos/play.php?i=20 http://www.petzl.com/us/node/9886 edit to add link to the death: http://www.register-herald.com/...l-in-New-River-Gorge There's not much info in the news report, but she anchored in with two shoulder length slings, both with petzl strings on them, and was unlucky enough to have had both of the biners rotate to where the strings were the only thing holding the biners to the slings. A good point about safety... but surely this is the fault of the climbers for not checking their gear and not actually a problem with using retainers. I can't see this problem happening mid climb after racking up correctly?
Wrong, this can happen very easily mid climb after racking up correctly, here is one of many possible scenarios: you have your slings tripled (like 99% of people do when they rack up), you are pumped as you grab a tripled sling and untriple it quickly (not noticing as you do that you unclipped 3 loops instead of two), everything still looks okay because the biner is held on by the string/o-rign/retainer, you clip the rope, fall, and all the sudden you are on the ground instead of being held by your last piece of gear.
Just don't use open slings with "retainers"
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redlude97
Aug 16, 2011, 5:48 PM
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Danx wrote: Is it worth using Retainers on sling draws? on short quickdraws for sport climbing I think their really helpful holding the sling tight to clip easier, but on long slings for trad does it really make much difference? Is there a high chance of the caribiner spinning after being clipped?( resulting in a higher chance to unclip) Also if the answer is yes, whats the best size o rings to use (roughly) for a dmm spectre 2 caribiner?
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Danx
Aug 16, 2011, 5:50 PM
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Danx
Aug 16, 2011, 5:54 PM
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redlude97
Aug 16, 2011, 5:57 PM
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Danx wrote: In reply to: Why do you think this? Probably unlikely. But if there was rope drag, pulling the rope through could rotate the biner causing it to catch on the rock and the gate opening or cross loading?
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Danx
Aug 16, 2011, 5:58 PM
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kennoyce
Aug 16, 2011, 6:01 PM
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Danx wrote: In reply to: Wrong, this can happen very easily mid climb after racking up correctly, here is one of many possible scenarios: you have your slings tripled (like 99% of people do when they rack up), you are pumped as you grab a tripled sling and untriple it quickly (not noticing as you do that you unclipped 3 loops instead of two), everything still looks okay because the biner is held on by the string/o-rign/retainer, you clip the rope, fall, and all the sudden you are on the ground instead of being held by your last piece of gear. Just don't use open slings with "retainers" Makes sense, thanks out of interest. what are the other scenario's
The scenario I mentioned is the most plausable, but here are a couple more off the top of my head:
gear gets tangled, accidently unclip one strand as you are untangeling it.
Partner doesn't know the danger and accidentaly re-racks the piece wrong
You already mentioned something happening and you not checking every sling before you climb (seriously, I don't know anyone who checks every sling before every route they do)
I'm sure that there are many other scenarios that could happen that I'm not thinking of at the moment. Just remember Murphy's law when you are thinking of doing something like this.
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kennoyce
Aug 16, 2011, 6:05 PM
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Danx wrote: redlude97 wrote: Danx wrote: In reply to: Why do you think this? Probably unlikely. But if there was rope drag, pulling the rope through could rotate the biner causing it to catch on the rock and the gate opening or cross loading? How does having a retainer prevent the biner from catching on the rock? It doesn't, but it would stop it rotating, which could reduce the chance.
I think if anything, having a string on would increase the chance of the biner opening on the rock.
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qwert
Aug 17, 2011, 10:34 AM
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jt512 wrote: Putting retainers on open slings is a dangerous and useless practice. If you want slings with captive carabiners, buy slings designed for that purpose.
I have two trad draws, one with a retainer, and one without, and the one without handles like shit.
But then on the other hand, the danger with the retainers is real. Had it happen once so far. So while that solves the clipping and handling issue, it does create another issue, thats not just an annoyance, but actually a danger.
What i have seen (but have not tried yet) is to simply "fix" the rope biner with a clove hitch. So what am i (and the person i have seen that on) missing? that sounds like it would be a perfect solution. Why isnt that widely used? Actually with a clove hitch, one could add a retainer too, if the clove hitch does not provide enough stability.
qwert
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MS1
Aug 17, 2011, 2:21 PM
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qwert wrote: jt512 wrote: Putting retainers on open slings is a dangerous and useless practice. If you want slings with captive carabiners, buy slings designed for that purpose. But the problem is, there are nor slings designed for that purpose! I have two trad draws, one with a retainer, and one without, and the one without handles like shit. But then on the other hand, the danger with the retainers is real. Had it happen once so far. So while that solves the clipping and handling issue, it does create another issue, thats not just an annoyance, but actually a danger. What i have seen (but have not tried yet) is to simply "fix" the rope biner with a clove hitch. So what am i (and the person i have seen that on) missing? that sounds like it would be a perfect solution. Why isnt that widely used? Actually with a clove hitch, one could add a retainer too, if the clove hitch does not provide enough stability. qwert
Metolius Long Draws are designed for that purpose.
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mbrd
Aug 17, 2011, 3:04 PM
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all right, wait a minute- i have petzl strings on the clipping biners on my longer slings. the top biners are free running, and are what i hang them off of my rack with, so they always get clipped to the pro with the running biner. i like having the rope biner ready to go, especially if i am smoked, and about to do something counterintuitive, like paw out an overhang with no juice and marginal pro.
so my question is, am i failing to consider something here that might crater or cripple me? i think i can understand the problems with having the string at both ends, but what if it is only on the bottom of the sling?
i have never had a problem with this setup, but the world is full of mangled souls (and has lost more than a few) who said, "it's never failed before, so i'm sure it's safe".
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csproul
Aug 17, 2011, 3:08 PM
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mbrd wrote: all right, wait a minute- i have petzl strings on the clipping biners on my longer slings. the top biners are free running, and are what i hang them off of my rack with, so they always get clipped to the pro with the running biner. i like having the rope biner ready to go, especially if i am smoked, and about to do something counterintuitive, like paw out an overhang with no juice and marginal pro. so my question is, am i failing to consider something here that might crater or cripple me? i think i can understand the problems with having the string at both ends, but what if it is only on the bottom of the sling? i have never had a problem with this setup, but the world is full of mangled souls (and has lost more than a few) who said, "it's never failed before, so i'm sure it's safe".
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mbrd
Aug 17, 2011, 3:22 PM
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ugh-- i knew i forgot something...
thanks for the reminder, i'll viddy them now.
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j_ung
Aug 17, 2011, 3:30 PM
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This is one of those solutions that solves a virtually non-existent problem and puts you one step closer to the grave. The woman who died at the New made the same modification to two separate pieces of gear, and both of them failed independently of the other. In other words, a "low probability" event happened twice at the same time. She was not a newbie. If anybody still thinks this is even remotely a good idea, please reconsider.
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TradEddie
Aug 17, 2011, 3:33 PM
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Danx wrote: ah ok then. Pointless maybe, as I don't think holding the caribiner in place will make much difference in a sling draw? But why would you say that they are that dangerous? If the sling unclips I don't see how it makes a difference if it's got a retainer or not.
If there is no retainer, you will know they have unclipped because they are no longer connected! With a retainer, even a visual inspection can be deceiving, and you might not realize until it's too late...
Apart from that, no difference.
TE
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mbrd
Aug 17, 2011, 3:34 PM
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well, that took about fifteen seconds to clear up. video seems to pry open my walnut sized brain every now and then.
damned brits, always pissing in my cornflakes.
for a guy that used to religiously scrutinize the petzl catalog warnings section, i feel pretty stupid for not having ever noticed that one. for a guy that makes a living hanging heavy objects, and dangling and thrashing, i feel pretty stupid for not having intuited this potential failure (operator error).
thanks for the non abusive cluing in. haha! "did you look at the links upthread?" of-fucking-course i- oh wait, there were links?
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mbrd
Aug 17, 2011, 3:40 PM
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yeah man! i dig getting rid of potential failure before it becomes kinetic.
well, except in my social life...
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mbrd
Aug 17, 2011, 3:47 PM
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oh, and i am definitely into the "low probability/high consequence" considerations. that's why i hang heavy objects for a living. and why i occasionally refuse to...
thanks again to all for the broadcast "heads up". i started climbing (with gear) in 1981, and there is still plenty i don't know (and can't do!).
maybe if i spent less time on the couch with ale and bourbon....
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