What makes you think an onsight attempt is somehow different than any other climb or that it requires a 'strategy' of any sort?

For serious climbers and coaches the obvious answer is that different types of athletic / cognitive challenges require different response from the athlete. On-sights and redpoints are very different types of athletic challenges; climbers can improve their performance by adopting tactics that are best suited to those challenges.

For folks who are less serious about or less interested in how the mind and body respond to the different challenges posed by climbing its not an issue that matters.

For me, I try to learn everything possible about the route before leaving the ground. I read sequences, I look for rests and clipping stances and cruxes,...

I also go over pacing, movement initiation and how to deal with ambiguity, fear, or getting pumped faster than I thought I would.

Basically my on-sight tactics are based on the fact that the work the climber does on the ground doesn't "cost" anything in terms of aerobic or anaerobic energy production.

I have written at length on this topic in a new book coming out at the end of the year.

I suppose first I'd have to agree different endeavors require different responses and therein lies the real rub.

A big part of the reason you even bring up that disparity is because, for most climbers these days, what constitutes climbing is so far removed from onsights / 'redpoints' as to almost be a different sport. So sure, if what constitutes 'climbing' 98% of the time you are roped-up is [aerial] bouldering up routes hanging from the end of the rope then yes, absolutely, onsighting / FAs are another beast entirely and one you won't be prepared for. And if you are unaccustomed to wrangling that beast it will definitely require an altogether different mindset as you suggest.

The answer the OP needs isn't to do a bunch of mumbo-jumbo when suddenly attempting to do an onsight, but rather to spend a greater percentage of their time on a rope climbing like they are climbing onsight - i.e. not hanging.

Yeah, well only so much of that is available sometimes, particularly on multipitch and especially multipitch FAs.

If you need to consciously do that roped in at the base of a climb I should think you're a day late and a dollar short.

And overall of little utility if what you are trying to overcome is a near complete lack of experience climbing without hanging your way up a route.

Hmmm, I'm sure it will be as great as all the other climbing books out there, but if onisghting and FA is what they dream of then reading won't do anything for them if they continue to make 98% of their climbing experience bouldering up routes hanging on the end of a rope.

You seem to have an axe to grind with the way other people climb, so be it.

But its not a matter of "mindset" its a matter of what is required in each type of climbing in term of the cognitive and physical demands of the performance. There is a huge difference between attempting to execute a difficult movement sequence after it has been memorized [hanging from the end of a rope], and trying to execute a movement sequence on the first try with incomplete information about that sequence. The reason I brought up the difference is because they are radically different challenges, it has nothing to do with the habits of climbers. Regardless of an individual climber's habits, redpoints and onsights are and will always be very different athletic challenges.

You miss the point and make the point at the same time. Applying correct tactics is not mumbo-jumbo even if the climber is inexperienced at on-sight climbing. Less experienced climbers will simply be able to apply fewer tactics and apply them less well but you even mentioned one tactic involved in on-sighting that being down climbing. Well, reading sequences, pre-visualizing, and so on are just more advanced on-sight tactics that even inexperienced climbers can work with. They just do so at a lower level.

Nope, quite the opposite, its part of what made me a very good and extremely consistent on-sight climber.

Look, everyone has to start learning on-sight tactics at some level. Less experienced climbers will be able to do less productive work from the ground but one learns, as you point out, by practicing. using good tactics on the ground and then reviewing after an on-sight attempt is part of that learning.

I know its hard, but try not to be an ass, its not becoming.

None whatsoever, but it's common sense that if you don't do an activity 98% of the time you are roped-up then you are going have a pretty hard time coming up with the goods [on demand] the 2% of the time you do attempt it.


Again, we disagree - the 'problem' isn't that you don't have things worked to death or memorized, but rather you simply have little to no experience working out sequences while actually climbing unaided by the rope 'on-the-fly'. More of that experiences is what is required.


Again, forest for the trees - the issue isn't doing anything 'different' on rare occasions when you attempt to climb something you don't have wired from hanging on the end of the rope, but learning the requisite mental and emotional capabilities necessary to work out unknown sequences on the fly without the aid of the rope.


Well, I'd say that's your tactic/crutch, not mine - that's more active mental activity then you'll ever find me doing. In fact, I do the opposite and attempt to clear my mind entirely to the degree possible, but to each his own. Personally, I'd recommend my approach over yours, but then I think we can agree you'd do the same.


Maybe don't think of climbing without hanging on the rope to figure out the sequences as a matter of 'tactics', but rather just think of it as 'climbing'; instead think of bouldering your way up routes working out the sequences from the end of a rope as a practice 'tactic' and don't make that practice more than about 50-60% of your climbing if you want to get good at onsighting and FAs.


Neither is saying someone is "not serious" while declaring yourself an 'expert' because you can type.

Sorry in advance for digging up an old thread.

First, I don't understand this pointless bickering between DH and Healy. Clearly the OP is asking what you do in the moments before an onsight and Healy insists on talking about what you should do in the months and years leading up to an onsight. He has a point, but doesn't need to be so obtuse about it...gotta love the internet.

The OPs question is somewhat ill-posed. He asked about the PSYCHOLOGY of onsighting, but then goes on to ask very specifically about reading sequences, which are not the same IMO. Reading sequences before an onsight attempt is an important step, but kind of a boring discussion topic. The psychology question is very interesting, however, because it is so hard to have the right mindset.

What should your attitudes and expectations be (ideally) before and while you attempt a hard onsight? Should you be afraid that you're going to fail? Should you be very confident that the route will be easy for you? It seems that both of these options are the wrong approach, so is it something in between? Then again, even if we knew what the best mental state were, is it possible to create that mental state on-demand before an onsight attempt?

There are a couple of ways to come to an answer. One is to think of your best onsights and try to reconstruct your mental state at the time, as well as the events and circumstances leading up to it that created that state. Often when someone succeeds on a hard onsight, they say it was "easy" or "effortless", so another approach might be to look at all climbs that feel that way, and try to understand why they do. For example, for those that have a regular warmup route they climb often, they probably climb it in a very relaxed state, a state that might be ideal for hard onsighting. This state is easy to achieve during the warmup, but not on a hard route, why is that?

At least a whole chapter couldn't be written on this topic, if not an entire book in itself, so I'll try to "cut to the chase". For me, when I try a hard onsight, I want to be in a mental state I call "cautious optimism". I need to feel that there is a high likelihood I will succeed on the route, but an understanding that it will be hard, and I will have to try hard. This means, I need to have confidence that I am "good" enough to send the route, which you can't lie to yourself about. The only way I know to have that confidence and really believe in it is through a route pyramid. If I'm about to attempt a 13a onsight, I have tangible confidence if I've onsighted other 13a's, or many 12d's, especially if they are of similar styles and at the same crag. The hardest thing to do is onsight at a new crag, so I will start smaller...maybe 12b, and build up a few routes at lower grades before working up to the route I want to eventually onsight. Confidence gives you several advantages on an onsight. It makes you believe that you can recover if you make a mistake, and it makes you believe you'll figure out the right sequence through the crux. This relaxes you, and helps you climb with a relaxed grip, and thus conserve energy throughout the climb. The relaxed mental state makes it easier for you to take the climbing as it comes and solve movement problems as they are presented.

On the other hand, if I think the route is too hard for me, I will likely overgrip throughout the climb, wasting energy. My movements will be very rigid and static rather than flowing because I'm constantly thinking I may need to retreat at a moments notice. I don't believe that I will find good places to rest, so I'm in constant fear of pumping off. When I come to a crux sequence, I'm likely to rush through it too quickly because I'm certain I'm going to get pumped and fall off if I climb slower. On a route I believe I can climb, when I grab a very small or uncomfortable hold, I'm likely to take my time looking for alternatives, whereas, on a route I believe is too hard for me, I'm likely to accept that this is the correct sequence, and I'm simply not good enough to climb it. In short, it is so much easier to climb a route that you THINK is easy, it's just not that easy to get in that mindset if the route is truly near your limit.

That said, there are also make-or-break moments, when you really just have to throw down and bust out some hard moves. That's where you don't want to think the climbing is too easy, but you do want to have the confidence that when you reach that crux, you have a good shot a succeeding. You then spend some time exhausting all of the possibilities to "flow" past it, and if that doesn't work, you just pull hard and go for it, knowing that you only have one shot, so you better climb in a manner that you won't regret later -- try hard! Just make sure you're able to calm back down after you stick the crux sequence so you can keep cruising to the chains.

The reason there is a "psychology question" is because over the course of the past thirty years 'climbing' has changed significantly and "onsighting" isn't what 98% of people do 98% of the time.

Why is there a psychology question about redpointing?

Jay

There isn't a question about redpointing.

Hague and Hunter just wrote a book about it.

Jay

Trad is from Mars, Sport is from Venus - climbing has really come of age now that sports have become a self-help subgenre. Writing books absolutely makes it real and did you know that the AMGA is about to spin up a TR Therapy and Lead Counseling course?

Redpoint - a whole book on tactics finally!


Finally we’ve got hold of some stock of Hague and Hunter’s new book ‘Redpoint’ in the shop (right here). The authors are most famous for their superb book The Self-Coached Climber which is justifiably one of our better selling climbing improvement texts. Like I’m sure most experienced coaches know, tactics are becoming an increasingly important area that forms the difference between progress and stagnation among modern climbers. So they have written a whole book dedicated to perfecting all the tactical tricks and advantages for both onsight and redpoint climbing.
It’s a worthy addition to the knowledge base and I’d say there are very few climbers around who are not aware of, or milking all the tactical advantages offered in the book. Whether you read it as a beginner or intermediate level climber to open up a whole new world of tactical awareness and advantage, or as an expert climber reminding yourself of all the tricks you could be using to get that crucial extra edge for your current goal, I’d recommend it.
It’s a substantial subject and a substantial book too. There’s even a 30 minute DVD that comes with it to see the tactics in action. They have included some assessment forms and checklists in each section to help you get a clearer idea of where you stand with your use and prowess of different tactics or skills. This sort of thing maybe doesn’t appeal to everyone. But if writing things down isn’t your style, you can just skip them and simply read the advice. Just as with The Self-Coached Climber, the book is thoughtfully laid out, well illustrated with colour photos and thorough without being a mind-number.
As a coach visiting ever improving climbing walls with stronger and fitter climbers, I’ve appreciated that tactics are the big deal for climbers these days. More and more often, climbers have the strength and fitness from many hours in the climbing wall. But without even knowing it, lack of tactical awareness has placed the glass ceiling above their head much lower than it ought to be. It’s a shame when that happens.
You can get hold of a copy from our shop here.