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Gmburns2000
Mar 30, 2012, 8:28 PM
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olderic wrote: jakedatc wrote: I saw pics of Zeb leading ice this winter. Yeah I was thinking of describing Zeb's experiences - they do fit into the context here. You could argue that he is a product of the junior comp circuit - he certainly did well at it (making the finals in the 18-19 category in his 3rd world's may still be the best any US boy has done in that category- not sure) - but he always was more of an all round climber IMO. He burnt out of comps after that for sure and discovered math. Finally started focusing on academics which ultimately paid off with the PHD program he is in at Dartmouth now. Still loves climbing and hates training. Did the Salathe with his girlfriend last September, did some hard ice this winter, still climbs 13's semi off the couch etc. seems to have a good balance - although it is just as nerve racking as a parent at times - although usually I don't know until after the fact. Like the time last August when he called me at work at 1AM. Z - I'm at Cannon me - Seems like its a nice day - what are you going to do? Z - actually I just got back to the car - I soloed WG, MG and Lakeview car to car in < 4 hours. me - oh. So be careful what you wish for.
I can't do the walkoff from Lakeview, MG, or WG in under 4 hours. 
OK, that's not entirely true, but it sure as hell feels like it.
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shawnhowland007
Apr 4, 2012, 2:29 AM
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damn you sound miserable.
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shockabuku
Apr 4, 2012, 12:01 PM
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shawnhowland007 wrote: damn you sound miserable.
?? Perhaps you've mistaken me for someone else.
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JasonsDrivingForce
Apr 4, 2012, 4:12 PM
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fsacb3 wrote: "I suppose writing is like Alzheimer's. There comes a point where you think the communication skills are there but with age all the observer sees is a lack of structure and coherence... and then no-one really cares to follow the rest of what is being said." What the hell are you trying to say? You're critiquing my structure and coherence? Not the point I'm making? Good debate skills.
Of all of the people you pick to respond to you chose to respond to the post that is unquestionably correct. Bravo! What was your point again? I couldn’t get to the end of your “ONE PARAGRAPH” because it was just the written form of a verbal vomit.
(This post was edited by JasonsDrivingForce on Apr 4, 2012, 5:43 PM)
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JasonsDrivingForce
Apr 4, 2012, 4:17 PM
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fsacb3 wrote: Disparaging? Hardly. I climb at the same gym as Ashima. I encourage the hell out of her. I cheer her on and congratulate her amazingness. I just feel conflicted about it. I also feel conflicted that this 65+ year old man who shows up every day doesn't get congratulated for his awesomeness. Do you understand what I'm saying?
Ashima is a rare case. She is unquestionably the best climber for her age and also the most publicized. If you are judging all kids based on what you see with Ashima then you might have a distorted view of what the other 99.99999999% of kids are like
(This post was edited by JasonsDrivingForce on Apr 4, 2012, 5:43 PM)
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JasonsDrivingForce
Apr 4, 2012, 5:08 PM
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polishbob wrote: Everyone is in title to their opinion, but you know what they say about "opinions". I just made this film http://vimeo.com/38595574, about a 12 year old sending 13d. The truth is that you completely represent the "new internet sprayer", who voices extremely strong opinions, but hinds behind some anonymous avatar. My next project is actually about people like yourself, so I will give you a chance to put your face in front of the camera and spray then. You can contact me via pm, I will show up and film you and see how brave you are, when we add your face to the strong opinions you post. Robert Rogoz (aka Polishbob)
@Polishbob
Great job on the film. Drew is such an incredibly strong climber. However, what I like best about him is that he is just about the shortest climber you will find and he doesn’t let it stop him. He finds a way to overcome his height limitations with sheer determination.
That is what is so cool about these young climbers. Most of them give their heart and soul on every climb simply for a little turquoise competitor ribbon. They might never reach the climbing ability and notoriety of Ashima, Kai, or Mirko but that will never stop them from trying.
@fsacb3
However, when those kids see Ashima, Kai, and Mirko climb they get inspired to try themselves. So how dare you try to minimize the significance of their dreams. If what they want to be is a super star rock climber and their parents are on board I am just fine with them doing everything in their power to achieve that goal.
In response to your comments I give you a video of all of these kids competing at the limits of their physical and mental abilities. If you don’t like these videos then don’t watch it. However, until you can truly say that you have reached the limits of your physical and mental abilities I wouldn’t say negative things about those who have.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-QyrtTDHs0
(This post was edited by JasonsDrivingForce on Apr 4, 2012, 5:43 PM)
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JasonsDrivingForce
Apr 4, 2012, 5:14 PM
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shockabuku wrote: superchuffer wrote: I agree with the op. The mags need to give as much props to 50 the year olds that do v12 as a kids. Kids repair quickly and weigh nothing.the sport is quickly moving towards glorifying anorexic, stressed out girls, just like gymnastics. Very few of them exhibit any signs of anorexia or undue stress.
I agree with the anorexia part. However, they are all no doubt under a lot of stress. The difference is that stress is a part of normal life. Anorexia should not be.
(This post was edited by JasonsDrivingForce on Apr 4, 2012, 5:43 PM)
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JasonsDrivingForce
Apr 4, 2012, 5:19 PM
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cracklover wrote: I admit, though, I do kinda wish the climbing world was not quite as it is. If I were to have a kid, and they had the natural talent and interest to be really good at climbing, I would feel like a shithead to keep them out of the circuit, where, no doubt, all their friends would be. Yeah, I could never do that. I guess I'd just have to subtly do my best to introduce the idea that climbing means more than that, also. Hmm... I dunno. GO
I look at climbing outside for the shear thrill of getting to the top and climbing in an indoor comp as two totally different sports. Sure the goal(To complete the problem) is the same. However, motivations and actions required to complete that goal can be entirely unrelated.
Soccer, Hockey, Basketball, and Football all have the same objective(Get an object in the goal). However, they are considered to be entirely unrelated sports.
(This post was edited by JasonsDrivingForce on Apr 4, 2012, 5:44 PM)
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JasonsDrivingForce
Apr 4, 2012, 5:40 PM
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cracklover wrote: Cool. Please please please don't let climbing become an Olympic sport! GO
I would rather see climbing not become an extinct sport like flatland Freestyle biking has become.
If there is no publicity, then there is no money.
If there is no money then there will not be any sponsors or equipment.
If there are no sponsors or equipment, then it really isn't a sport. It is a hobby that won't last long.
(This post was edited by JasonsDrivingForce on Apr 4, 2012, 5:44 PM)
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cracklover
Apr 4, 2012, 5:49 PM
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JasonsDrivingForce wrote: cracklover wrote: Cool. Please please please don't let climbing become an Olympic sport! GO I would rather see climbing not become an extinct sport like flatland Freestyle biking has become. If there is no publicity, then there is no money. If there is no money then there will not be any sponsors or equipment. If there are no sponsors or equipment, then it really isn't a sport. It is a hobby that won't last long.
Hahaha! Yeah right.
Look, you're into the whole gym scene, and even that mostly in relation to kids. Do you even climb? Hey, there's nothing wrong with that, but please don't take your extremely limited understanding of what climbing is and pretend you're an authority to define it for the rest of us.
GO
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JasonsDrivingForce
Apr 5, 2012, 3:06 AM
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cracklover wrote: JasonsDrivingForce wrote: cracklover wrote: Cool. Please please please don't let climbing become an Olympic sport! GO I would rather see climbing not become an extinct sport like flatland Freestyle biking has become. If there is no publicity, then there is no money. If there is no money then there will not be any sponsors or equipment. If there are no sponsors or equipment, then it really isn't a sport. It is a hobby that won't last long. Hahaha! Yeah right. Look, you're into the whole gym scene, and even that mostly in relation to kids. Do you even climb? Hey, there's nothing wrong with that, but please don't take your extremely limited understanding of what climbing is and pretend you're an authority to define it for the rest of us. GO
No I am not trying to define what it is to you. Like I said there are two totally unrelated sports. One is indoors and involves comps and mostly kids or young adults. The other is the traditional outdoor sport. You don't have to worry. The traditional outdoor sport will never be an Olympic event.
I have very limited knowledge of traditional outdoor climbing. I climb outside when I can but like you said most of the time it is just for fun with the kids. However, I know the indoor sport very well.
For the indoor sport to survive and flourish it needs the sponsors, the prodigy's, the videos, and eventually the Olympics. Maybe you are the one that doesn't understand the sport I participate in?
(This post was edited by JasonsDrivingForce on Apr 5, 2012, 3:10 AM)
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JasonsDrivingForce
Apr 5, 2012, 6:12 PM
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cracklover wrote: Let me repeat back to you what you said: In reply to: I would rather see climbing not become an extinct sport like flatland Freestyle biking has become. That is not taken out of context. That was the start of your post. You went on to detail how "climbing" could die. If you are concerned about the longevity of indoor gym climbing, A - you should say so, and B - that's even more laughable! Climbing gyms are doing just fine. Cheers, GO
You are right I should have specified which type of climbing I was talking about. I meant indoor competitive climbing. And yes climbing gyms are doing just fine and they will probably always do just fine as long as kids continue to have birthday parties.
What really concerns me is that it is getting harder and harder to get gyms to commit to having a local comp for the sport(SCS) climbing seasons. They can easily make more money by having a few birthday parties instead of paying a lot to hold a comp.
In fact the capital region only committed to two competitions in their region this season. That is the bare minimum. One of the Northwest regions couldn’t even get two comps in. Those kids have to go outside of their region just for their local comps.
All I am saying is that indoor competitive climbing is not a given. It is very expensive and it will not last forever without the sponsors, kids, and eventually the Olympics.
You obviously couldn't care less about indoor climbing. That is fine. However, you claim that I am speaking about a sport I have no idea about and yet you talk about indoor climbing like you know everything about it.
When you have volunteered your time to belay at these comps, worked just to get the gyms to sign-up, kept score for the comps, and cheered on a competitor just because you wanted to see them do well then you can talk about indoor climbing. Until you do those things I doubt you know anything about them except for what you have seen in the videos.
(This post was edited by JasonsDrivingForce on Apr 5, 2012, 6:19 PM)
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petsfed
Apr 5, 2012, 6:44 PM
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Similarly, distance running was never a popular nor successful sport until the invention of the treadmill.
Competitive indoor climbing is a lot like competitive weight lifting: fascinating for practitioners and a few oddballs, utterly boring for everyone else.
Climbing walls are becoming more and more common in well-off high schools, and are an old standby at summer camps, church camps, and major urban areas. Climbing walls, and competitive climbing, has existed for nearly 30 years. Its not going away any time soon, and it certainly doesn't need to be in the Olympics to survive, especially since climbing is a lot like golf: better when not too competitive.
Put another way, what will keep competition climbing going is the existence of rec-center leagues, middle-school and high-school leagues, things that don't depend on a FOR-PROFIT organization (e.g. the climbing gym) to have a place to compete.
(This post was edited by petsfed on Apr 5, 2012, 6:48 PM)
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JasonsDrivingForce
Apr 5, 2012, 6:57 PM
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petsfed wrote: Similarly, distance running was never a popular nor successful sport until the invention of the treadmill. Competitive indoor climbing is a lot like competitive weight lifting: fascinating for practitioners and a few oddballs, utterly boring for everyone else. Climbing walls are becoming more and more common in well-off high schools, and are an old standby at summer camps, church camps, and major urban areas. Climbing walls, and competitive climbing, has existed for nearly 30 years. Its not going away any time soon, and it certainly doesn't need to be in the Olympics to survive, especially since climbing is a lot like golf: better when not too competitive.
Is distance running really that popular today? I run marathons and I never thought of it as a “popular” sport. They don’t even televise the Boston anymore. In fact the New York marathon is the only nationally televised marathon that I know of now.
When “pulling on plastic” makes it into the Olympics we will see just how many people think it is exciting or not. ESPN tried it a decade ago and it flopped majorly after the initial newness went away.
Competitive climbing is not just about a gym having 1 comp and then going back to the part of their business that really makes them money. It is about the regular season and then the Regionals, Divisionals, and Nationals.
Gyms will always have friendly comps but that is not all of what competitive climbing is about. For competitive climbing to exist on a National scale it needs the things I listed in my previous posts.
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petsfed
Apr 5, 2012, 7:02 PM
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I've been told, directly, by several different gym operators that sponsorship budget is already stretched too thin. The 307 bouldering series, to the best of my knowledge the only state-wide bouldering championship in the country died because the gyms couldn't find the sponsorship necessary to keep doing the comps, and the organizing body itself couldn't afford to kick in the funds, as they couldn't get enough sponsors.
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cracklover
Apr 5, 2012, 7:18 PM
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JasonsDrivingForce wrote: What really concerns me is that it is getting harder and harder to get gyms to commit to having a local comp for the sport(SCS) climbing seasons. They can easily make more money by having a few birthday parties instead of paying a lot to hold a comp.
Sorry to hear that. I have no experience trying to get a comp together.
In reply to: All I am saying is that indoor competitive climbing is not a given. It is very expensive and it will not last forever without the sponsors, kids, and eventually the Olympics.
Well, so you say. I have no data to the contrary, so I'll just have to take your word on it.
In reply to: You obviously couldn't care less about indoor climbing. That is fine. However, you claim that I am speaking about a sport I have no idea about and yet you talk about indoor climbing like you know everything about it.
Wrong on both counts. First, I certainly could care less about indoor climbing. I've been involved in gyms in one way or another for over a decade. Second, I don't know everything about gym climbing, nor did I claim to.
In reply to: When you have volunteered your time to belay at these comps, worked just to get the gyms to sign-up, kept score for the comps, and cheered on a competitor just because you wanted to see them do well then you can talk about indoor climbing. Until you do those things I doubt you know anything about them except for what you have seen in the videos.
Boy are you off the mark.
I have worked probably a half a dozen comps. I have volunteered my time...
- To belay at these comps
- To be a judge/scorekeeper
- To set routes for comps
And yes, I've cheered on the competitors.
Comps are fun, and I've been happy to support them in all sorts of ways.
The reason you're so confused is that you don't know how much you don't know about climbing. You don't realize that someone could appreciate comp climbing for what it is, and at the same time have mixed feelings about its place in the larger climbing world.
GO
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cracklover
Apr 5, 2012, 7:30 PM
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petsfed wrote: Similarly, distance running was never a popular nor successful sport until the invention of the treadmill. Competitive indoor climbing is a lot like competitive weight lifting: fascinating for practitioners and a few oddballs, utterly boring for everyone else.
Well put.
In reply to: Is distance running really that popular today? I run marathons and I never thought of it as a “popular” sport. They don’t even televise the Boston anymore. In fact the New York marathon is the only nationally televised marathon that I know of now.
Wait a minute... if lots of people run, but not on TV, does that mean it's not popular? Consumerist culture does not define popularity. Whether or not someone has figured out a way to package and sell something does not define whether or not people actually inherently like it.
GO
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JasonsDrivingForce
Apr 5, 2012, 7:45 PM
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Great so you do know what effort it takes to hold a comp. And I completely understand someone not totally agreeing with the direction that the sport(climbing as a whole) has gone.
However, you must understand that when you said “Please please please don't let climbing become an Olympic sport!” it was like me saying “Please please please don't let people continue to climb outside because it might mess up the rock”. Both statements assume the worst about something that will probably never have any bearing on the person that said them.
I just don’t understand the people who don’t want indoor climbing to be an Olympic sport. It will have absolutely no affect on you if it does become an Olympic sport. If you don’t participate in it and you don’t watch it you will never even know it has happened.
I wouldn’t wish that outdoor climbing stop for you so why would you wish that indoor climbing not progress for someone else? That just sounds selfish to me. Which I hope you would agree should never be a part of climbing in any fashion.
I really just wish that traditional outdoor climbing and indoor competitive climbing could coexist as two very distinct and separate sports. They share some equipment and the techniques are used in both. And some people participate in both. However, they have completely separate ways of achieving the goals and objectives.
(This post was edited by JasonsDrivingForce on Apr 5, 2012, 7:56 PM)
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JasonsDrivingForce
Apr 5, 2012, 7:54 PM
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cracklover wrote: Wait a minute... if lots of people run, but not on TV, does that mean it's not popular? Consumerist culture does not define popularity. Whether or not someone has figured out a way to package and sell something does not define whether or not people actually inherently like it. GO
There is no way of knowing how everyone defines the word popular so I just used my own definition. I measured popularity by television viewers as opposed to participants because television programs can draw in the millions where race participants are usually in the tens of thousands.
If a sport has millions of viewers(Super Bowl, World Series, World Cup) I would say it is popular. When a sport(The Boston) can’t even draw enough viewers to justify showing it on an off channel(Versus) on an “off day”(Patriots day) then I don’t really consider it to be very popular.
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JasonsDrivingForce
Apr 5, 2012, 8:11 PM
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What I have learned from this conversation is that everyone who has responded(Including myself) is probably too worried about how other people climb instead of how they climb themselves.
Therefore, I am going to just go climb in my own way and enjoy it. I hope everyone else has a good time climbing in their own way as well.
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petsfed
Apr 5, 2012, 8:37 PM
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Again, you're confusing the ability to justify televising an event with its actual popularity. NASCAR is very easy to televise because a lot of people are interested in watching it, but only a very, VERY few can ever claim to work towards competitive driving, let alone compete in a NASCAR event. Meanwhile, long distance running is very popular because a lot of people do it.
Nike, Asics, Addidas, all of them sponsor running events because their customer base is HUGE and their per-item markup is similarly huge. Think of the big three climbing companies: Petzl, Black Diamond, and Wild Country. They have a vested interest in appealing to climbers of all kinds, from elite to bumbly, boulders to big walls, indoor to alpine. Why would they dump a considerable amount of money into a small market like indoor climbing (which doesn't require much gear, and most of the money spent goes to the gym itself, rather than to the company sponsoring) if it prevents them from also supporting some other form of climbing. Yes, gyms need sponsorships to hold competitions. However, equipment markup is tiny and the margins are razor thin, so there's just not a lot of money to throw around. To get more money, we need more people climbing and buying gear, which means more people going to the crags. And as Gabe has been trying so hard to explain, the sport of climbing as practiced at the crag, and the sport of climbing as practiced in a competition are completely unrelated to each other.
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edge
Apr 5, 2012, 9:38 PM
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As someone who has been active on both the indoor and outdoor climbing scene and their history, I feel qualified to add my two cents.
My background for the sake of this discussion is that I have been a trad climber for 34 years, sport climber for 20+, and have worked closely with USA Climbing as a Head Judge at Nationals, Regional Coordinator, and was on a committee exploring getting competitive climbing in the Olympics.
To be honest that committee didn't accomplish a whole lot while I was involved, however the original JCCA (Junior Competition Climbing Association) morphed into the USCCA (US Competition Climbing Association), and eventually USA Climbing as a means of becoming the governing body for the sport in the US.
While I worked as a Regional Coordinator from roughly 2001-07, it was easy to schedule gyms as interest and the possibilities were high. During that time the ABS (American Bouldering Series) began, catering to the bouldering crowds and doling out sponsorship gear and prizes, often with cash for the Elite categories. When the ABS became too big to be ignored, it was absorbed by USA Climbing and their current bouldering series was born, already tried and tested.
Since USA Climbing doesn't generally allow prizes for their local level comps, a large part of the draw from the ABS was lost. However the Junior (19 and under) competitors helped sustain and grow both the indoor bouldering and sport climbing series, as parents will do most anything to support their kids including paying for training, comp fees, and travel.
Currently it seems like most local gyms host youth teams as a genuine money maker, as they charge for a dedicated core group to train, hire a coach, and generate interest. However, most soon figured out that hosting a comp was a monetary loss once they factored in closing the gym to set, hold the comp, and pay for quality routesetting on a large scale. Last weekend a local gym hosted a comp with 20 competitors. At $25 a head thats just $500 for the day, probably a fraction of what they paid for routesetting.
The gyms that continue to host comps should be commended for their dedication. They receive benefits beyond immediate cash flow, such as generating good will, supporting their teams, and having a ton of new routes for their clientele. Still, not every gym can afford to do this.
I firmly believe that the process is in motion to have competition climbing eventually become an Olympic sport. Back when I was on the aforementioned committee, the majority of the world was already behind this and it was the US who was the major stumbling block. The competitive aspect of the sport is already huge in Europe, exploding in Asia, and now has a firm foothold in the US. It's just a matter of time.
What does this mean? From a trad climbing perspective probably not much, but you cannot argue that the bouldering and sport climbing scenes have grown exponentially with the birth of indoor gyms. This leads to overcrowding at outdoor areas, and (generalizing here...) frequently bad ethics from gym educated climbers who have no experience in outdoor etiquette, techniques, and behavior.
When climbing becomes an Olympic sport, it would be short sighted to assume that this will not increase, impacting everyone. When snowboarding became an Olympic sport the numbers exploded and suddenly the baggy clothes and associated attitudes were everywhere on the mountains. The difference is that a good many of the snowboarders were people who otherwise skied or would have become skiers, so the numbers at the ski areas were not impacted as much.
With attention to climbing after it becomes part of the Olympics, there will be an influx of new climbers starting in the gyms and eventually branching out to the great outdoors with a significant increase in impact. This will be great for the gyms, the sponsors, and the gear manufacturers, but the limited outdoor resources will be taxed heavily.
I have very mixed feelings about this, but it is what it is. All I can do is climb for myself, try to lead by example, and help educate the masses. Whether we all buy into that or not, and whether or not the new breed of climbers are receptive, remains to be seen. It won't be easy, but I see it as inevitable.
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