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climbupmama
May 21, 2012, 10:58 PM
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I'm doing a paper on how the rock climbing community has adapted to women's needs...my ideas are clothing/equipment, events/workshops, books specifically for women/websites...I interviewed climbers, and I also got the response, "when women used to climb hard grades, they would immediately be downgraded...now, they are treated more equal and taken seriously"
If anyone has any ideas or information about how the community has adapted to women, it would be very helpful! Thank you!!!
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kiwiprincess
May 21, 2012, 11:34 PM
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I have recently found my grandmother climbed in pre WW2 era. In the UK pinnicle club and the Ladies alpine club were always active so events etc Are probably not Super New.
EG:There was an international all women expedition to Cho Oyu in 1959.
Women's specific equipment is probably more recent. Back packs and harnesses weren't Gender specific 30 years ago.
Books for/by women. There are great books out there by climbing women. I personally find it is more the personality than gender that hooks me into a good adventure story, but they do re inforce that women do it and may be aspirational for some.
I found Lynn hills chapter on Sport climbing in one of those How to Climb books really Helpful as well as the women's specific chapter in will Gadds Iceclimbing book. The Challenges Were the ones I faced and the solutions similar.
I have been thinking about gender and climbing and wrote myself a list of categories to think about. More questions than answers but I'll pm it to you. I'd love to hear more specifically where your thoughts and idea's are ( or Put a link to your paper when finished.)
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notapplicable
May 22, 2012, 2:27 AM
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Grigri's were invented?
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patto
May 22, 2012, 2:52 AM
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Wasn't climbing invented by guys so they could impress women?
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karmiclimber
May 22, 2012, 4:04 AM
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patto wrote: Wasn't climbing invented by guys so they could impress women?
Awww. Hahaha. That's adorable.
Anyway. I was under the impression that gear used to be unisex and that it's been a trend to have women specific gear recently as more of a niche market. Plus, you will notice it went from harness to women's harness or men's harness...not just like women's harness and harness (yes, there is a difference)...so it could just be that there is more of a revolution to fitting harnesses to be more anatomically comfortable. I mean, it's not like they have women's specific draws, right?
Also, I don't think more women are getting into climbing recently. I really don't. And I feel like everytime I hear that, I want to puke, because to me it sounds like "aww. Look at all the chicks trying to break into climbing. How precious."
It's a unisex sport. Unlike lots of others.
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curt
May 22, 2012, 4:43 AM
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karmiclimber wrote: Also, I don't think more women are getting into climbing recently. I really don't. And I feel like everytime I hear that, I want to puke, because to me it sounds like "aww. Look at all the chicks trying to break into climbing. How precious." It's a unisex sport. Unlike lots of others.
Well, I certainly disagree with that--and since I've been climbing for over 30 years, I'm in a pretty good position to chime in. There are many, many more women climbing today than in the 70s or 80s--there's absolutely no doubt about it. It used to be quite rare to see any women out climbing and now it's commonplace. (This is a good thing, by the way.) I suspect that this could perhaps be one positive result of people learning to climb in gyms.
Curt
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Bats
May 22, 2012, 4:49 AM
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Really I had never notice, but I was always involved with sports. Climbing, a more sociable & challenging sport.
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justroberto
May 22, 2012, 5:42 AM
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Bats wrote: Climbing, a more sociable & challenging sport.
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wonderwoman
May 22, 2012, 11:03 AM
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notapplicable wrote: Grigri's were invented?
Really? Please elaborate. Since I use double ropes most of the time, I rarely use a grigri.
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karmiclimber
May 22, 2012, 11:12 AM
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curt wrote: karmiclimber wrote: Also, I don't think more women are getting into climbing recently. I really don't. And I feel like everytime I hear that, I want to puke, because to me it sounds like "aww. Look at all the chicks trying to break into climbing. How precious." It's a unisex sport. Unlike lots of others. Well, I certainly disagree with that--and since I've been climbing for over 30 years, I'm in a pretty good position to chime in. There are many, many more women climbing today than in the 70s or 80s--there's absolutely no doubt about it. It used to be quite rare to see any women out climbing and now it's commonplace. (This is a good thing, by the way.) I suspect that this could perhaps be one positive result of people learning to climb in gyms. Curt
Yeah but where have you been climbing for 30 years? All over? Europe? America? East coast? West coast? It makes a diff in what you see. Plus the OP did not qualify the date things started changing or w/e. Anyway, I'd like to see some stats on the whole "women are a recent addition to the sport" all I ever hear is "I never done see a woman climbing at the crag til last week." blah blah blah.
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sungam
May 22, 2012, 12:53 PM
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notapplicable wrote: Grigri's were invented?
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camhead
May 22, 2012, 1:44 PM
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karmiclimber wrote: curt wrote: karmiclimber wrote: Also, I don't think more women are getting into climbing recently. I really don't. And I feel like everytime I hear that, I want to puke, because to me it sounds like "aww. Look at all the chicks trying to break into climbing. How precious." It's a unisex sport. Unlike lots of others. Well, I certainly disagree with that--and since I've been climbing for over 30 years, I'm in a pretty good position to chime in. There are many, many more women climbing today than in the 70s or 80s--there's absolutely no doubt about it. It used to be quite rare to see any women out climbing and now it's commonplace. (This is a good thing, by the way.) I suspect that this could perhaps be one positive result of people learning to climb in gyms. Curt Yeah but where have you been climbing for 30 years? All over? Europe? America? East coast? West coast? It makes a diff in what you see. Plus the OP did not qualify the date things started changing or w/e. Anyway, I'd like to see some stats on the whole "women are a recent addition to the sport" all I ever hear is "I never done see a woman climbing at the crag til last week." blah blah blah.
Uhhh... I'm going to go ahead and chime in for curt; he's climbed very diversely throughout the US in the last 30 years– Gunks, South Dakota, NE Washington, Colorado, Joshua Tree, AZ, to name a few places. He's in a good position to offer views of how climbing has changed on a national level over the past generation.
(end of ballcupping)
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SylviaSmile
May 22, 2012, 2:12 PM
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curt wrote: karmiclimber wrote: Also, I don't think more women are getting into climbing recently. I really don't. And I feel like everytime I hear that, I want to puke, because to me it sounds like "aww. Look at all the chicks trying to break into climbing. How precious." It's a unisex sport. Unlike lots of others. Well, I certainly disagree with that--and since I've been climbing for over 30 years, I'm in a pretty good position to chime in. There are many, many more women climbing today than in the 70s or 80s--there's absolutely no doubt about it. It used to be quite rare to see any women out climbing and now it's commonplace. (This is a good thing, by the way.) I suspect that this could perhaps be one positive result of people learning to climb in gyms. Curt
I think gyms are much less intimidating than outdoor rock, in general, so a lot of people (men and women) who might not otherwise get into rock climbing get into it through plastic climbing. But one big reason I think more women have gotten into the sport of rock climbing most recently is because of developments in protective gear, and probably more bolted routes as well. I'm not saying there aren't quite a few daredevil ladies out there, but most of us tend to be conservative when it comes to life and limb.
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karmiclimber
May 22, 2012, 2:51 PM
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camhead wrote: karmiclimber wrote: curt wrote: karmiclimber wrote: Also, I don't think more women are getting into climbing recently. I really don't. And I feel like everytime I hear that, I want to puke, because to me it sounds like "aww. Look at all the chicks trying to break into climbing. How precious." It's a unisex sport. Unlike lots of others. Well, I certainly disagree with that--and since I've been climbing for over 30 years, I'm in a pretty good position to chime in. There are many, many more women climbing today than in the 70s or 80s--there's absolutely no doubt about it. It used to be quite rare to see any women out climbing and now it's commonplace. (This is a good thing, by the way.) I suspect that this could perhaps be one positive result of people learning to climb in gyms. Curt Yeah but where have you been climbing for 30 years? All over? Europe? America? East coast? West coast? It makes a diff in what you see. Plus the OP did not qualify the date things started changing or w/e. Anyway, I'd like to see some stats on the whole "women are a recent addition to the sport" all I ever hear is "I never done see a woman climbing at the crag til last week." blah blah blah. Uhhh... I'm going to go ahead and chime in for curt; he's climbed very diversely throughout the US in the last 30 years– Gunks, South Dakota, NE Washington, Colorado, Joshua Tree, AZ, to name a few places. He's in a good position to offer views of how climbing has changed on a national level over the past generation. (end of ballcupping)
So all over America then? I'm just saying. Not trying to argue here. Anyway, if women haven't been into climbing until more recently in America, I think its because their hobbies were mostly grocery shopping and cleaning the house (like in the 50's and 60's). Guys have always been free to do whatever the hell they wanted. All I am saying is sometimes this shit sounds like patronization. "Oh look. A girl finally climbed a hard grade. Its amazing" No, you are just now taking notice. I don't want any guys welcoming me into the boys club of climbing, because its not a boy party to begin with.
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caughtinside
May 22, 2012, 3:11 PM
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The history of women in climbing is an interesting one. A friend is really interested in the subject and she has gotten a lot of really interesting information from the Sierra Club archives. There were a number of active and prolific women climbers in the 1920s and beyond.
Lately it seems that the gym climbing culture has spilled outdoors and there's a good mixed group. I would say that if you look at the representation of women at a trad crag and at a sport crag, it is a huge difference. There are a lot of good female trad climbers out there now, but their numbers are miniscule next to the sport climbers.
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camhead
May 22, 2012, 3:22 PM
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karmiclimber wrote: camhead wrote: karmiclimber wrote: curt wrote: karmiclimber wrote: Also, I don't think more women are getting into climbing recently. I really don't. And I feel like everytime I hear that, I want to puke, because to me it sounds like "aww. Look at all the chicks trying to break into climbing. How precious." It's a unisex sport. Unlike lots of others. Well, I certainly disagree with that--and since I've been climbing for over 30 years, I'm in a pretty good position to chime in. There are many, many more women climbing today than in the 70s or 80s--there's absolutely no doubt about it. It used to be quite rare to see any women out climbing and now it's commonplace. (This is a good thing, by the way.) I suspect that this could perhaps be one positive result of people learning to climb in gyms. Curt Yeah but where have you been climbing for 30 years? All over? Europe? America? East coast? West coast? It makes a diff in what you see. Plus the OP did not qualify the date things started changing or w/e. Anyway, I'd like to see some stats on the whole "women are a recent addition to the sport" all I ever hear is "I never done see a woman climbing at the crag til last week." blah blah blah. Uhhh... I'm going to go ahead and chime in for curt; he's climbed very diversely throughout the US in the last 30 years– Gunks, South Dakota, NE Washington, Colorado, Joshua Tree, AZ, to name a few places. He's in a good position to offer views of how climbing has changed on a national level over the past generation. (end of ballcupping) So all over America then? I'm just saying. Not trying to argue here. Anyway, if women haven't been into climbing until more recently in America, I think its because their hobbies were mostly grocery shopping and cleaning the house (like in the 50's and 60's). Guys have always been free to do whatever the hell they wanted. All I am saying is sometimes this shit sounds like patronization. "Oh look. A girl finally climbed a hard grade. Its amazing" No, you are just now taking notice. I don't want any guys welcoming me into the boys club of climbing, because its not a boy party to begin with.
I'm really not sure what you're getting defensive and confrontational about. You stated that you "don't think that more women are getting into climbing recently," then when Curt gave reason to believe otherwise, you both imply that he lacks sufficient depth, and make excuses for why women might be under-represented in the sport, even though you still swear that they're not? I'm confused.
Here are some given facts I don't think anyone would disagree with: women are significantly under-represented in climbing; i.e., WAY fewer than 51% of climbers are female. This is across the world, regardless of nation.
Numbers of women climbing are rising, especially since the gym/sport revolution of the early 90s.
For the same reason that women have always been even MORE underrepresented in the more bold, heady styles of climbing (extreme highball bouldering, headpointing, alpinism, r/x routes, or elite level trad-climbing), we have seen the greatest gains of female climbing in competition, sport climbing, and some bouldering.
Here's another question to keep it going: why aren't more women putting up sport route FAs?
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wonderwoman
May 22, 2012, 3:26 PM
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SylviaSmile wrote: curt wrote: karmiclimber wrote: Also, I don't think more women are getting into climbing recently. I really don't. And I feel like everytime I hear that, I want to puke, because to me it sounds like "aww. Look at all the chicks trying to break into climbing. How precious." It's a unisex sport. Unlike lots of others. Well, I certainly disagree with that--and since I've been climbing for over 30 years, I'm in a pretty good position to chime in. There are many, many more women climbing today than in the 70s or 80s--there's absolutely no doubt about it. It used to be quite rare to see any women out climbing and now it's commonplace. (This is a good thing, by the way.) I suspect that this could perhaps be one positive result of people learning to climb in gyms. Curt I think gyms are much less intimidating than outdoor rock, in general, so a lot of people (men and women) who might not otherwise get into rock climbing get into it through plastic climbing. But one big reason I think more women have gotten into the sport of rock climbing most recently is because of developments in protective gear, and probably more bolted routes as well. I'm not saying there aren't quite a few daredevil ladies out there, but most of us tend to be conservative when it comes to life and limb.
Speak for yourself. This is a groundless blanket statement. I don't consider myself as risking life and limb, and I know a lot of men who would never get mud on their shoes or dirt under their fingernails.
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hyhuu
May 22, 2012, 3:29 PM
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karmiclimber wrote: camhead wrote: karmiclimber wrote: curt wrote: karmiclimber wrote: Also, I don't think more women are getting into climbing recently. I really don't. And I feel like everytime I hear that, I want to puke, because to me it sounds like "aww. Look at all the chicks trying to break into climbing. How precious." It's a unisex sport. Unlike lots of others. Well, I certainly disagree with that--and since I've been climbing for over 30 years, I'm in a pretty good position to chime in. There are many, many more women climbing today than in the 70s or 80s--there's absolutely no doubt about it. It used to be quite rare to see any women out climbing and now it's commonplace. (This is a good thing, by the way.) I suspect that this could perhaps be one positive result of people learning to climb in gyms. Curt Yeah but where have you been climbing for 30 years? All over? Europe? America? East coast? West coast? It makes a diff in what you see. Plus the OP did not qualify the date things started changing or w/e. Anyway, I'd like to see some stats on the whole "women are a recent addition to the sport" all I ever hear is "I never done see a woman climbing at the crag til last week." blah blah blah. Uhhh... I'm going to go ahead and chime in for curt; he's climbed very diversely throughout the US in the last 30 years– Gunks, South Dakota, NE Washington, Colorado, Joshua Tree, AZ, to name a few places. He's in a good position to offer views of how climbing has changed on a national level over the past generation. (end of ballcupping) So all over America then? I'm just saying. Not trying to argue here. Anyway, if women haven't been into climbing until more recently in America, I think its because their hobbies were mostly grocery shopping and cleaning the house (like in the 50's and 60's). Guys have always been free to do whatever the hell they wanted. All I am saying is sometimes this shit sounds like patronization. "Oh look. A girl finally climbed a hard grade. Its amazing" No, you are just now taking notice. I don't want any guys welcoming me into the boys club of climbing, because its not a boy party to begin with.
Now you are just rambling.
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SylviaSmile
May 22, 2012, 3:38 PM
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wonderwoman wrote: SylviaSmile wrote: curt wrote: karmiclimber wrote: Also, I don't think more women are getting into climbing recently. I really don't. And I feel like everytime I hear that, I want to puke, because to me it sounds like "aww. Look at all the chicks trying to break into climbing. How precious." It's a unisex sport. Unlike lots of others. Well, I certainly disagree with that--and since I've been climbing for over 30 years, I'm in a pretty good position to chime in. There are many, many more women climbing today than in the 70s or 80s--there's absolutely no doubt about it. It used to be quite rare to see any women out climbing and now it's commonplace. (This is a good thing, by the way.) I suspect that this could perhaps be one positive result of people learning to climb in gyms. Curt I think gyms are much less intimidating than outdoor rock, in general, so a lot of people (men and women) who might not otherwise get into rock climbing get into it through plastic climbing. But one big reason I think more women have gotten into the sport of rock climbing most recently is because of developments in protective gear, and probably more bolted routes as well. I'm not saying there aren't quite a few daredevil ladies out there, but most of us tend to be conservative when it comes to life and limb.Speak for yourself. This is a groundless blanket statement. I don't consider myself as risking life and limb, and I know a lot of men who would never get mud on their shoes or dirt under their fingernails.
Yeah, it's definitely my interpretation of the situation. I don't consider myself to be risking life and limb either (though there are clearly more risks attached to rock climbing than, say, moderate hiking), but that's because I trust the equipment. I would be interested to know how many women climbers climb without caring either way (what I call a daredevil and what camhead termed "bold, heady" style) as opposed to men--in other words, climbing when you can easily see that the risk of injury or death is moderately high.
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karmiclimber
May 22, 2012, 3:45 PM
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camhead wrote: karmiclimber wrote: camhead wrote: karmiclimber wrote: curt wrote: karmiclimber wrote: Also, I don't think more women are getting into climbing recently. I really don't. And I feel like everytime I hear that, I want to puke, because to me it sounds like "aww. Look at all the chicks trying to break into climbing. How precious." It's a unisex sport. Unlike lots of others. Well, I certainly disagree with that--and since I've been climbing for over 30 years, I'm in a pretty good position to chime in. There are many, many more women climbing today than in the 70s or 80s--there's absolutely no doubt about it. It used to be quite rare to see any women out climbing and now it's commonplace. (This is a good thing, by the way.) I suspect that this could perhaps be one positive result of people learning to climb in gyms. Curt Yeah but where have you been climbing for 30 years? All over? Europe? America? East coast? West coast? It makes a diff in what you see. Plus the OP did not qualify the date things started changing or w/e. Anyway, I'd like to see some stats on the whole "women are a recent addition to the sport" all I ever hear is "I never done see a woman climbing at the crag til last week." blah blah blah. Uhhh... I'm going to go ahead and chime in for curt; he's climbed very diversely throughout the US in the last 30 years– Gunks, South Dakota, NE Washington, Colorado, Joshua Tree, AZ, to name a few places. He's in a good position to offer views of how climbing has changed on a national level over the past generation. (end of ballcupping) So all over America then? I'm just saying. Not trying to argue here. Anyway, if women haven't been into climbing until more recently in America, I think its because their hobbies were mostly grocery shopping and cleaning the house (like in the 50's and 60's). Guys have always been free to do whatever the hell they wanted. All I am saying is sometimes this shit sounds like patronization. "Oh look. A girl finally climbed a hard grade. Its amazing" No, you are just now taking notice. I don't want any guys welcoming me into the boys club of climbing, because its not a boy party to begin with. I'm really not sure what you're getting defensive and confrontational about. You stated that you "don't think that more women are getting into climbing recently," then when Curt gave reason to believe otherwise, you both imply that he lacks sufficient depth, and make excuses for why women might be under-represented in the sport, even though you still swear that they're not? I'm confused. Here are some given facts I don't think anyone would disagree with: women are significantly under-represented in climbing; i.e., WAY fewer than 51% of climbers are female. This is across the world, regardless of nation. Numbers of women climbing are rising, especially since the gym/sport revolution of the early 90s. For the same reason that women have always been even MORE underrepresented in the more bold, heady styles of climbing (extreme highball bouldering, headpointing, alpinism, r/x routes, or elite level trad-climbing), we have seen the greatest gains of female climbing in competition, sport climbing, and some bouldering. Here's another question to keep it going: why aren't more women putting up sport route FAs?
I'm not trying to be confrontational. I'm explaining my perspective. Mine is more limited, obviously. I haven't been climbing for 30 years. I've been alive for 30 years. So, I have seen less. Its true. I think that is where the confusion comes in....what someone who has been climbing for 30 (and alive for much more, obviously sees as recent is going to be different from what a 30 year old thinks is recent). I never said Curt lacked depth. I don't know him at all. But I myself have lived and climbed all over the country. Some places, just once (Garden of the Gods and some places in Lake Tahoe and the desolation wilderness, for example) some places more of a frequent crag (Consumnas, Smith, RRg and NRG among others)....what you see at your home crag contributes more to your perspective on what goes on in the climbing community, in my opinion. I guess when I go into the sport it seemed pretty much 50/50. Granted its been about 10 years ago.
Now, not all women are Lynn Hill....BUT...I'd say this is "elite level trad" (taken from Wiki)...In 1993, together with her partner Brooke Sandahl, she became the first person, male or female, to free climb The Nose, a famous route on El Capitan in Yosemite Valley.[2] In 1994 she upped the ante, by becoming the first to free climb the entire route in a single 24 hour period, beginning at 10:00 PM on September 19.[3] Lynn Hill's original climbing grade for the "Free Nose" was 5.13b. The Free Nose and the Free Nose in a day remained unrepeated over 10 years after Hill's first ascents - despite numerous attempts by some of the best big wall climbers in the world.
As for myself and bold, heady climbing...Personally, I'm not into trad (although I have climbed trad) or highball (also done this once or twice), etc because I'm not into it. I like highball...its a real feeling of accomplishment...but IT is risky...and I'm a Mom. If I wasn't a Mom, I would be into it more. Trad is too much shit and I like to climb fast. Alpinism, I am really really interested in...I already love climbing mountains.
Personally, I don't think this is a "man's sport." (w/e) I don't feel like a man when I climb. I feel like a strong, beautiful woman. Now, I don't expect guys to feel like a pretty lady when they climb...but I don't think of it as "macho" like football or MMA or even mountain biking, which I do also.
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SylviaSmile
May 22, 2012, 3:46 PM
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Also, I do recognize that you climb waaaaaay harder than me . . . so, I don't know. Maybe you are way bold and don't consider stuff I consider wild and crazy as dangerous. It still freaks me out to watch Steph Davis free solo and talk about it so calmly, as if she didn't realize that a couple pieces of crumbly rock or a fast-moving cloudburst could be the end of her. :)
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karmiclimber
May 22, 2012, 3:47 PM
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wonderwoman wrote: SylviaSmile wrote: curt wrote: karmiclimber wrote: Also, I don't think more women are getting into climbing recently. I really don't. And I feel like everytime I hear that, I want to puke, because to me it sounds like "aww. Look at all the chicks trying to break into climbing. How precious." It's a unisex sport. Unlike lots of others. Well, I certainly disagree with that--and since I've been climbing for over 30 years, I'm in a pretty good position to chime in. There are many, many more women climbing today than in the 70s or 80s--there's absolutely no doubt about it. It used to be quite rare to see any women out climbing and now it's commonplace. (This is a good thing, by the way.) I suspect that this could perhaps be one positive result of people learning to climb in gyms. Curt I think gyms are much less intimidating than outdoor rock, in general, so a lot of people (men and women) who might not otherwise get into rock climbing get into it through plastic climbing. But one big reason I think more women have gotten into the sport of rock climbing most recently is because of developments in protective gear, and probably more bolted routes as well. I'm not saying there aren't quite a few daredevil ladies out there, but most of us tend to be conservative when it comes to life and limb.Speak for yourself. This is a groundless blanket statement. I don't consider myself as risking life and limb, and I know a lot of men who would never get mud on their shoes or dirt under their fingernails.
+1
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shockabuku
May 22, 2012, 3:49 PM
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I'm a little more circumspect about when and where I pee.
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lena_chita
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May 22, 2012, 3:52 PM
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climbupmama wrote: I'm doing a paper on how the rock climbing community has adapted to women's needs...my ideas are clothing/equipment, events/workshops, books specifically for women/websites...I interviewed climbers, and I also got the response, "when women used to climb hard grades, they would immediately be downgraded...now, they are treated more equal and taken seriously" If anyone has any ideas or information about how the community has adapted to women, it would be very helpful! Thank you!!!
There are women-specific clinics and groups that promote getting women into climbing. Think Sterling Rope "Goddess on the Rock" weekend events, Chicks with Picks, etc.
I think the women-specific gear are the main "adaptation" ( e.i. shoes with smaller/narrower heels, lower volume, harnesses with rise/leg/waist ratio more suited for women)
The other change is cosmetic (brighter colors, more color options). I think it would be pretty safe to say that pink glittery chalkbags were not on the market 30 years ago! But then again, there wasn't really a "market" for chalkbags 30 years ago, period.
Other than the gear and some women-specific clinics, etc. I do not see any adaptation that the climbing community has made. Nor do I really see a need for any such adaptation.
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caughtinside
May 22, 2012, 3:59 PM
Post #25 of 162
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Registered: Jan 8, 2003
Posts: 30603
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I'm pretty surprised your impression is that it's been 50/50 at any time in the last 10 years. Maybe in the gym, but never at a crag I've seen.
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