Chipping is weak and lame. If you CAN'T climb it you don't NEED to climb it. If nobody can climb it, then it doesn't need to be climbed. Simple.

Chipping is weak and lame. If you CAN'T climb it you don't NEED to climb it. If nobody can climb it, then it doesn't need to be climbed. Simple.

There are routes that require hundreds of lbs of rock to be trundled before being climbable. Is the weak and lame also? What about comfortizing holds?

Nothing needs to be climbed.

Do you think trundling and chipping are the same thing? No? Then why ask such a stupid fucking question?

Comfortizing is for pussies. Climbing isn't supposed to be comfortable.

No, but you seem to be polarizing an issue that isn't black and white. Not all trundling is acceptable, just like most chipping isn't acceptable. But where do you draw the line for chipping? Is breaking off a piece of loose rock that exposes a new hold chipping? Is aggressive cleaning chipping? I bet you've climbed on comfortized and chipped holds without even knowing it. Leaving razor sharp edges that form in certain rock types is bad form at many areas. I'm certainly not saying what happened on this route is acceptable because I havent seen it first hand, but to make black and white statements such as yours about many well respected developers around the world isnt helpful.

I will never understand sport climbing "ethics". It's a mortal sin to chip a small hold, but blasting 4" deep holes and placing hundreds of permanent bolts is cool

I don't understand how anyone could care the slightest about someone manufacturing routes at a quarry.

Try re-reading the thread, we're not talking about manufacturing routes at a quarry.

Exactly, so don't be a dick and bring the rock down to your level.

How about I clean the choss off, climb the thing, and you stay off? Seems like everyone gets what they want that way.

How about just don't chip?

No, but you seem to be polarizing an issue that isn't black and white.

Not all trundling is acceptable, just like most chipping isn't acceptable. But where do you draw the line for chipping? Is breaking off a piece of loose rock that exposes a new hold chipping? Is aggressive cleaning chipping? I bet you've climbed on comfortized and chipped holds without even knowing it. Leaving razor sharp edges that form in certain rock types is bad form at many areas. I'm certainly not saying what happened on this route is acceptable because I havent seen it first hand, but to make black and white statements such as yours about many well respected developers around the world isnt helpful.

OK, I'll bite, because I really don't think it's complicated:

- Cleaning stops at removing rock that the climber could reasonably be expected to pull or kick off accidentally.
- Comfortizing stops at running your hammer over razor edges and points to make them possible to touch.

Hmm... so drilling pockets and gluing pieces of rock on as holds - what a difficult grey area. Not so much!

GO

Actually, I don't think he is.

I have a lot less experience bolting in general, and manufacturing developing sport routes in specific, but I've certainly done my share. I've trundled literally tons of rock, and cleaned with both nut tools hammers, and crow bars.

With that said, I think every serious route developer, even me, knows that there is a very obvious line between cleaning, yes, even aggressive cleaning, and chipping. Before you go inventing some borderline cases, let me just say that inventing a grey area does not mean that white is black, which is pretty much what you're saying.


OK, I'll bite, because I really don't think it's complicated:

- Cleaning stops at removing rock that the climber could reasonably be expected to pull or kick off accidentally.
- Comfortizing stops at running your hammer over razor edges and points to make them possible to touch.

Hmm... so drilling pockets and gluing pieces of rock on as holds - what a difficult grey area. Not so much!

GO

Try re-reading the thread, we're not talking about manufacturing routes at a quarry.

According you HugePedro, if you hammer a sharp edge to make it useable with a hammer, you are a pussy. My only point is that many of these developers have vast amounts more experience than I do, and I'll leave it up to their judgement what is acceptable. To label them as pussies is beyond harsh IMO

- Comfortizing stops at running your hammer over razor edges and points to make them possible to touch.

See? Pedro already thinks you are a chipper if you do that.

There are no absolutes on choss.

See? Pedro already thinks you are a chipper if you do that.

Comfortizing is for pussies. Climbing isn't supposed to be comfortable.

What about reinforcing a hold with glue? How is that really that different than gluing a hold on?

Maybe he's never climbed in a limestone area, where the sharp edges can easily slice to the bone, especially when you're hanging all your weight off of two fingers.