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billl7
Aug 9, 2013, 5:04 PM
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Edit: Assume that a rap backup will be used and it is a french prusik on the brake strand ...
Many of us have heard a leader remark about questionable protection placed on lead: I can't do any better with that feature but at least the pro might slow me down if I fall.
What about a french prusik on the brake strand of a rappel? On some days, is it necessarily true that the best one can get is: I'm not certain if that config will ~immediately stop me if I unexpectedly lose control. But at least it will slow me down.
(This post was edited by billl7 on Aug 9, 2013, 5:16 PM)
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edge
Aug 9, 2013, 5:13 PM
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I've used a back-up prussik knot twice in 36 years of climbing; once in the 80s when I first read about the technique. I decided it was unnecessary. The second time was last Winter rappelling with cold hands, a pack, and on unfamiliar terrain on a single 9.8 rope; I took it off halfway down. If I need more control, I just add a second biner under the ATC, and I rarely do that.
Keep it simple, have your systems dialed, and be 100% vigilant at all times. I also tie knots in the end of the rope as the situation warrants, but have never been stopped or surprised by them. If you are hoping they will stop you during an out of control rap, you are doing something seriously wrong.
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bearbreeder
Aug 9, 2013, 5:44 PM
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a friction knot tied PROPERLY BELOW the device ... will almost always catch IME
however not everyone ties it properly ...
the problem with backups isnt that it wont catch if done properly ... but its the people doing it properly in the first place and learning how to rap smoothly and confidently
almost every newbie or "safe" climber ive met who says loudly that they never rap without a backup and its unsafe to do so ... they rap like shiet ... bouncing and struggling all over the place trying to wiggle that prussic
every climber should be confident enough to rap without any backups and do so smoothly and safely ... one of these days youll need to rap without any extra gear
i find it hilariously funny when those same climbers who always insist people use backups, insist that an ATC is perfectly safe for those same climbs
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wonderwoman
Aug 9, 2013, 6:03 PM
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I almost always back up my rap with a klemheist. Thankfully I have never lost control of my rappel and had to test it out.
The one time that I could have used two hands during a rap was after nearly getting strangled by my helmet when it got caught up under the belay device of my husband while simul-rappelling (thunder and lightning was coming in so we had to get down quick).
He could have just lowered himself and released me from hanging from my helmet straps. Maybe he has an insurance policy out on me. But anyway, I never let go with my brake hand while using my free hand to try to release the buckle / launch myself off his device. But I am glad that I was on back up. Shit happens.
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marc801
Aug 9, 2013, 6:20 PM
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wonderwoman wrote: I almost always back up my rap with a klemheist. Thankfully I have never lost control of my rappel and had to test it out. The one time that I could have used two hands during a rap was after nearly getting strangled by my helmet when it got caught up under the belay device of my husband while simul-rappelling (thunder and lightning was coming in so we had to get down quick). He could have just lowered himself and released me from hanging from my helmet straps. Maybe he has an insurance policy out on me. But anyway, I never let go with my brake hand while using my free hand to try to release the buckle / launch myself off his device. But I am glad that I was on back up. Shit happens.
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wonderwoman
Aug 9, 2013, 6:35 PM
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marc801 wrote: wonderwoman wrote: I almost always back up my rap with a klemheist. Thankfully I have never lost control of my rappel and had to test it out. The one time that I could have used two hands during a rap was after nearly getting strangled by my helmet when it got caught up under the belay device of my husband while simul-rappelling (thunder and lightning was coming in so we had to get down quick). He could have just lowered himself and released me from hanging from my helmet straps. Maybe he has an insurance policy out on me. But anyway, I never let go with my brake hand while using my free hand to try to release the buckle / launch myself off his device. But I am glad that I was on back up. Shit happens. You were doing it wrong. What you described isn't possible if you were simul-rapping correctly.
One person on each strand, versus both of us on an extended rap device. He took off from the rock and his device launched up into the back of my helmet.
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csproul
Aug 9, 2013, 6:35 PM
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You know, there's nothing preventing you from being competent at rappelling AND using a backup AND using an effective backup. They are not mutually exclusive. You CAN test your backup system before you use it. Use a back-up or not, I don't care, but the notion that they are only used by gumbies who can't rappel without them is patently false.
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distantThunder
Aug 9, 2013, 6:45 PM
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"I've used a back-up prussik knot twice in 36 years of climbing; once in the 80s when I first read about the technique. I decided it was unnecessary."
+1
dT
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distantThunder
Aug 9, 2013, 6:46 PM
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"I almost always back up my rap with a klemheist"
Bless you!
I do hope that's not contagious.
dT
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wonderwoman
Aug 9, 2013, 6:46 PM
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csproul wrote: You know, there's nothing preventing you from being competent at rappelling AND using a backup AND using an effective backup. They are not mutually exclusive. You CAN test your backup system before you use it. Use a back-up or not, I don't care, but the notion that they are only used by gumbies who can't rappel without them is patently false.
Nah - you can tell a noob from a mile away. They're the ones backing up rappels, wearing helmets, and finishing a figure eight with a fisherman's knot.
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wonderwoman
Aug 9, 2013, 6:47 PM
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distantThunder wrote: "I almost always back up my rap with a klemheist" Bless you! I do hope that's not contagious. dT
Ha ha!
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dagibbs
Aug 9, 2013, 7:04 PM
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Sometimes I use a friction knot (technically hitch) for rappelling, sometimes I don't.
When I do, I always use it below the rappel device, on the brake strand, because I figure that I would really like to have the mechanical advantage of the rappel device helping my friction knot. I do not consider the rappel device itself to need backing up -- we trust something such as Gri-gri or ATC un-backed up for belay, we should for rappel as well.
When do I use one? When I think the rappel might get complicated. For example, if the ropes have been thrown, but look to have gotten tangled, and I may want both hands free for untangling them, pulling them out of a tree or crack, or whatever. (Sure, I could do a leg-wrap, and have done this as well -- but a friction knot is more convenient.) Also, when the start of the rappel is messy, especially if I'm starting above the anchor point, and have to down-climb to the start of the rappel. Or, when I'm not sure the direction of the rappel, and may need to look around a lot.
I also use one when I'm cleaning a route, or otherwise doing development work on a route.
I don't tend to use one when the rappel looks to be simple -- I can, generally, get a smoother rappel without one, and can almost always get a faster rappel without one. (Though, I've used them enough that I'm generally reasonably smooth even using one.)
I'll sometimes throw on belay gloves and not use a friction knot if the rappel looks simple, fun, and the anchor is solid -- then I'll almost do it as a sport-rappel for the fun of it. This is, generally, not the case if I'm the first person down the rap.
I think it is good to know how to do it, but the choice should not be an always/never, but a case-based judgement call, like so many other things in climbing.
For the knot, I tend to use what I think is called an auto-block knot. Generally simpler and quicker to tie/rig than a prussik, and works fine for the application in question.
(This post was edited by dagibbs on Aug 9, 2013, 8:05 PM)
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shimanilami
Aug 9, 2013, 7:57 PM
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dagibbs wrote: When do I use one? When I think the rappel might get complicated. For example, if the ropes have been thrown, but look to have gotten tangled, and I may want both hands free for untangling them, pulling them out of a tree or crack, or whatever. .. Also, when the start of the rappel is messy, especially if I'm starting above the anchor point, and have to down-climb to the start of the rappel. Or, when I'm not sure the direction of the rappel, and may need to look around a lot. I also use one when I'm cleaning a route, or otherwise doing development work on a route.
Exactly. I also use a "third hand" when I'm rapping with a pig.
The point is that if you need your hands for something other than rapping, then it's a heck of a lot easier to set yourself up before you get to that point.
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bearbreeder
Aug 9, 2013, 8:10 PM
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wonderwoman wrote: I almost always back up my rap with a klemheist. Thankfully I have never lost control of my rappel and had to test it out. The one time that I could have used two hands during a rap was after nearly getting strangled by my helmet when it got caught up under the belay device of my husband while simul-rappelling (thunder and lightning was coming in so we had to get down quick). He could have just lowered himself and released me from hanging from my helmet straps. Maybe he has an insurance policy out on me. But anyway, I never let go with my brake hand while using my free hand to try to release the buckle / launch myself off his device. But I am glad that I was on back up. Shit happens.
just to clarify ...
its not that you shouldnt use a backup ...
but that everyone SHOULD learn and be proficient in rapping WITHOUT a backup
before i swtiched to the alpine smart ... ive use kleimheist for backup when needed ...
the problem i see is that there are quite a few people who never rap without their backups, never practice it ... and they have poor rope control and technique rappping ...
when i show someone how to rap ... i always get them to rap without any back ups (except a firemans) ... so they can learn rope control, to sit down into the rap (rather than bouncing all around), and how to stop yourself with leg wraps ... THEN ill show em how to do the backup after they can rap confidently without one
many people ive seen who rap with prussic depend on em in place of proper technique ...
you can see such an acccident here
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...w_flat;post=2609556;
its the same as assisted locking devices ... im a BIG fan of gri gris, smarts, etc ...
but many people who learn on em have poor rope control and shiet belay technique ... theres a reason why people keep on getting dropped on gri gris ...
master the BASICS ... and work from there
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petsfed
Aug 10, 2013, 6:02 AM
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I went for a long time without ever using any sort of backup, and have gradually transitioned to where if I can't see that the rope is tangle-free all the way to the next station, the first person down uses a backup to clear any tangles, and everybody else (typically just one, but not always) gets a fireman's backup.
Since I outweigh my partners (but not by much these days), I'm the first one down, so I've gotten pretty good at rigging the third hand quickly.
To the OP: if it doesn't immediately stop you, you've rigged it wrong. The third hand is incredibly easy to tie, and very effective.
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billl7
Aug 10, 2013, 2:35 PM
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petsfed wrote: To the OP: if it doesn't immediately stop you, you've rigged it wrong. The third hand is incredibly easy to tie, and very effective.
I'll just add that, correctly using a french prusik can be problematic in my experience. Often, the difference between apparent success and total failure is half a wrap and/or clipping back to the "wrong / right" side. In short, rigging an effective french prusik is not so fool-proof. (Edit - as an aside - and having a config that fails but still significantly slows one down is far from being assured.)
... enough so that the french prusik should be avoided in general.
Although I have no experience with them in this application, klemheist or standard 3-wrap prusik are intuitively better than the french prusik because they keep the friction loops closely packed on the rope.
Bill L
(This post was edited by billl7 on Aug 10, 2013, 2:43 PM)
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csproul
Aug 10, 2013, 5:20 PM
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This is just anecdotal, but I use the French Prussic on my leg loop and have used it to rap with 100+ lbs of extra weight hanging from me (haul bag). WIthout fail, I have easily been able to release the brake hand to perform other tasks as needed.
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billl7
Aug 10, 2013, 7:49 PM
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I do tend to get tunnel vision on these things. 
There are many people out there competently using the french prusik.
And I've seen a prusik simply slide down a single strand of rope ... usually when it is quite cold but not always.
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blueeyedclimber
Aug 10, 2013, 9:55 PM
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billl7 wrote: Edit: Assume that a rap backup will be used and it is a french prusik on the brake strand ... Many of us have heard a leader remark about questionable protection placed on lead: I can't do any better with that feature but at least the pro might slow me down if I fall. What about a french prusik on the brake strand of a rappel? On some days, is it necessarily true that the best one can get is: I'm not certain if that config will ~immediately stop me if I unexpectedly lose control. But at least it will slow me down.
First, when you hear someone say something about gear slowing them down, it's said in jest. They have no intention of ever testing it.
Second, and excuse my ignorance, but is a french prussik the same as an autobloc?
Third, I don't always use a backup. When I do, it's if I am rappelling into unknown terrain, making multiple wraps after a long day, or to make make my wife feel better  . That last one is VERY important.
Fourth, I still don't buy your contention that a rappel backup attached below the device, properly set up as to not slide into the device, will slide and melt. It has not been my experience at all. Like others have said, if you are so out of control that it will cause the backup to slide, then you are doing something VERY wrong.
Josh
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billl7
Aug 10, 2013, 10:49 PM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: ... when you hear someone say something about gear slowing them down, it's said in jest. They have no intention of ever testing it.
I've heard the humor too - could be gallows humor. Not sure about "no intention". Many times there is a bomber piece likely within play lower down.
blueeyedclimber wrote: ... and excuse my ignorance, but is a french prussik the same as an autobloc?
blueeyedclimber wrote: ... I still don't buy your contention that a rappel backup attached below the device, properly set up as to not slide into the device, will slide and melt.
I don't believe the above either. Must have been a mis-communication/mis-understanding somewhere along the way.
Bill L
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bearbreeder
Aug 11, 2013, 2:56 AM
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personally i just use and show people the kleimheist ....
- it works and is recommended for slings, webbing, etc ...
- you can tie tie it without any biner with cord ... just tie the knot and the close if off with an overhand to your belay/leg loop, depending if you extend the rap
KISS
(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Aug 11, 2013, 2:57 AM)
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marc801
Aug 11, 2013, 2:56 PM
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billl7 wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: ... when you hear someone say something about gear slowing them down, it's said in jest. They have no intention of ever testing it. I've heard the humor too - could be gallows humor. Not sure about "no intention". Many times there is a bomber piece likely within play lower down.
"At least it will slow me down" = "I know this piece is crap and purely psychological protection"
It reminds me of the exchange from The Eiger Sanction. Part way up the Eiger things are getting desperate and there's already been one serious injury....
Hemlock (Clint Eastwood): "Don't worry - we'll make it."
Soon to be deceased German(?) climber: "I don't think so. But we will continue with style."
(This post was edited by marc801 on Aug 11, 2013, 3:03 PM)
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rgold
Aug 12, 2013, 2:19 AM
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I agree that bad gear slowing you down is usually gallows humor. But in fact it seems likely that it there is truth in it too, properly interpreted. The question is quite technical, namely whether the rope can recover some in the brief instant between a piece failing and the loading of the next piece down. Tests by Mark Beverly indicate that this is true, and that means that the load on the next piece down will be lower if the top piece fails then it would be if there had been no top piece to fail. How much lower depends on the failure load of the top piece as well as the nature of the rope recovery.
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billl7
Aug 12, 2013, 1:26 PM
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As much as many folks are resistant to intent to rely on an iffy placement, hopefully it is the same for an iffy rap backup.
What got me going on the topic of rap backups was a rather serious comment in another thread that at least a rap backup will slow one down.
Bill L
(This post was edited by billl7 on Aug 12, 2013, 1:26 PM)
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bearbreeder
Aug 12, 2013, 4:27 PM
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one can do everything right and still place iffy gear ... especially in cr@p rock, onsight at your limit, in cr@p placement options
there is no reason to tie and iffy rap backup at all ... its not like yr doing it when shaking like a dog on lead ... its a simple repeatable process that is easily checked
and theres no reason for iffy rapping skills, just like belaying ... learn to do it properly through practice over and over again
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