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iron106
Apr 6, 2015, 1:22 PM
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A 59-year-old man suffered multiple injuries after he fell about 50 feet rappelling down a cliff at Ralph Stover State Park in Plumstead on Sunday.
http://m.theintell.com/...4e0d8f.html?mode=jqm
Apparently his elaborate anchor was in question by other climbers .
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viciado
Apr 7, 2015, 11:38 AM
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The link leads to a page which requires a subscription to access. Can you provide some details regarding your comment about the anchor setup?
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iron106
Apr 7, 2015, 12:56 PM
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This is from a Facebook conversation i had with someone who was climbing next to them not my account of the accident.....
"Ok. To put to rest all the speculations I was there and saw what happened. A guy was leading the inside corner on the right side of far face. When he got to the top, he clipped into the anchor. , his belayer took him off belay. The climber then weighted the rope expecting to be lowered and fell. He bounced off they rocked a few times and then hit the rock , where people usually tie in, at the very bottom of far face. Not sure of all the injuries but he does have a collapsed lung and some broken bones. He is in Temple Hospital haven't heard anything since. I am NOT saying any names for privacy reasons. I don't think we need to start bashing anyone here because nobody is immuned to accidents. I have seen guides of 20 + years involved in accidents and being injured."
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camhead
Apr 7, 2015, 1:24 PM
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So, he fell because of miscommunication– he thought he was being lowered, and his belayer thought he was rapping? This has happened a LOT, and is one of the most avoidable mistakes in single pitch cragging.
Climbers as a whole are gradually moving toward the default of lowering off of single pitch fixed anchors. It's quicker and safer. In 99.9% of all single pitch climbs, lowering off is the best option. Yet some people keep thinking that the default is rapping.
This fricking recent article from Climbing Magazine is only making this debate more complex, by telling us to "rap when we can."
facepalm.
http://www.climbing.com/...live-sport-climbing/
Oh, and think before you post: if you regularly rap off of single pitch anchors, you ARE a gumby. There is no debate to this.
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robdotcalm
Apr 7, 2015, 3:43 PM
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camhead wrote: So, he fell because of miscommunication– he thought he was being lowered, and his belayer thought he was rapping? This has happened a LOT, and is one of the most avoidable mistakes in single pitch cragging. Climbers as a whole are gradually moving toward the default of lowering off of single pitch fixed anchors. It's quicker and safer. In 99.9% of all single pitch climbs, lowering off is the best option. Yet some people keep thinking that the default is rapping. This fricking recent article from Climbing Magazine is only making this debate more complex, by telling us to "rap when we can." facepalm. http://www.climbing.com/...live-sport-climbing/ Oh, and think before you post: if you regularly rap off of single pitch anchors, you ARE a gumby. There is no debate to this.
Since most accidents on single pitch descents occur while being lowered, there seems little statistical basis for your dogmatic assertions. I found the article in Climbing well written and informative.
Satisfied,
Gumby, Rob
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PAbeekeeper
Apr 8, 2015, 11:14 AM
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I'm confused.... How does one "lead" a TR climb? And why rap or lower when the walkoff takes under a minute? The climb in question is at the far end of the cliff, is completely flat and solid on top (and an easy mantle top out to boot), and right next to the path to the base.
Which is to say that while I like the convenience added by folks bolting TR anchors at Stover, I'm not at all pleased to hear climbs are being retrobolted. Then again, it wasn't really that hard to simply bring a length or two of webbing to anchor off trees at the top.
Btw for non-locals... The parking lot is at the top of the cliff, so normal practice used to be park, set up your TR anchor, drop the rope, walk down. At most a 15 minute endeavor, and that's if you were doing something in the middle of the cliff (access is from the ends).
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viciado
Apr 8, 2015, 12:17 PM
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The topos for Ralph Stover indicate that the routes are "trad" and can be lead on gear.
If the "norm" used to be walk off, one can see how the belayer might have mis-understood the leader's intent. That there was mis-communication on a single pitch route resulting in ground fall indicates that he initial "failure" probably occurred on the ground before the leader started up the wall. In this light, the comments in the above referred article on "communication" and "trust, but verify" are spot on.
However, both the article and Camhead's critique tend towards a dangerous reduction of the understanding of the valid options available. While certain situations may warrant such a narrowing of choices, a climber's "toolbox" should not be strictly limited to "lower or rap" Such an oversimplification is not beneficial to a functional safety system in the long run.
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PAbeekeeper
Apr 8, 2015, 5:41 PM
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viciado wrote: The topos for Ralph Stover indicate that the routes are "trad" and can be lead on gear.
The topos are wrong. Trad is only done at Stover by those with a death wish; it's entirely rotten, fractured, slicker than polished limestone shale (cams don't grip) and large chunks fall off regularly. Not long ago one route (Gorilla?) completely disappeared when a schoolbus sized block detached from the top and rolled into the creek below. On a smaller scale the best route there (Neanderthal) is much, much harder than its 5.8 rating after a key hold at the crux came off around a decade ago. Happens all the time there, and in ever a decade of climbing there I've only seen someone do trad once. And that was on a 5.2 to the right of Practice Face because he didn't want to hike around to set up a TR.
As for the "norm", up until 2 or 3 years ago it was entirely toprope except for maybe 4 or 5 routes in the middle of the cliff. There were absolutely no bolts on that route last I was on it ~6 years ago. Nor should there be, unless your idea of a sport climb is 50 foot 5.4PG and 3 clips to the anchor (which is what Far Face Corner would be is someone bolted it).
Side note, I have a copy of the original guidebook for it at home to check the history of the route (not included in Falcon or the recent PA guidebook), but I'm out of town at the moment.
(This post was edited by PAbeekeeper on Apr 8, 2015, 6:05 PM)
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viciado
Apr 8, 2015, 6:08 PM
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I will take your word for the rock quality... it doesn't really bear on my point in any case. The fact that there is an easy, safe walk off option does support what I am saying in that rap/lower are not the only options at that crag and in fact, the third option is likely better and is the norm which I believe you indicated.
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iron106
Apr 8, 2015, 6:40 PM
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The rock is fine. I have lead a few routes there and have no deathwish whatsoever. I have read it is good practice for placing gear in the sandstone out west.
A lot of people "just starting out" climb there. Mostly a first outside climbing experience for them.
I do like the bolts on top to reduce wear on the trees. However, it makes it easier for ANYONE, to use.
Be safe and communicate.
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PAbeekeeper
Apr 8, 2015, 7:58 PM
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iron106 wrote: The rock is fine. I have lead a few routes there and have no deathwish.
Ever climb the second pitch of Neanderthal or any of the seldom-climbed stuff in the middle or on the lower cliffs?
Decidedly not fine, and I'm happy on loose&dirty DWG stuff. That said, Grey Wall is quite solid, and a bit grippier than the brown/red shale of the main cliff. Not very tall though.
Unexpectedly heading back home today, so might head out that way later in the week to get pics.
(This post was edited by PAbeekeeper on Apr 8, 2015, 8:00 PM)
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budman
Apr 9, 2015, 2:14 AM
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Think your a bit hard on Stover's quality. Learned to climb trad there many years ago and was there last year leading trad again for a bunch of fun. I will admit that some sections are not all that good due to the nature of the rock there are many good pitchs to be had placing gear. Learning to climb and place gear at Stover gave me a good respect for placing good gear in hard to place cracks. Sometimes climbing isn't so straight forward.
As to the topos the original guide books were written descriptions, no topos per se. It force one to read the climbs as they were as one climbed them. No circles and arrows telling one where to go and where to stop.
I don't think you need a death wish to climb trad at Stover just a willingness to improve your climbing, gear placing, route finding and decisions making your climbing safe.
Not every thing at Stover needs to be led trad, there is plenty of top roping and sport to be had.
If you want to climb real CHOSS join me out here in the desert. Oh Yeah! Cams really do hold there as I've fallen, hung and aided off them at Stover.
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PAbeekeeper
Apr 9, 2015, 3:48 AM
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budman wrote: Think your a bit hard on Stover's quality. Learned to climb trad there many years ago and was there last year leading trad again for a bunch of fun.
Well, I learned to trad climb there too. At the time (2002 or so) no one did that sort of thing there, for good reason. Even TR aid climbing there was frowned upon here on RC back then, and frankly the blown cam placements/poor quality rock has been a good thing in my travels.
Which is to say I'm a crusty old local that Camhead knows personally lured out of hiding. Not happy about that, but even less happy about the possibility of Far Face being bolted. Trout season just opened the other day, so I have an excuse to head over that way, but it won't be pleasant if I find the folks at Doylestown Rock Gym has been retrobolting TR climbs that were established in the 70's (if not earlier).
Convenience anchors, fine. Saves wear and tear on the trees. Sport retrobolting. And that's not cool. Which is to say I never thought I'd understand where Ken Nichols was coming from....
Also: DAMN YOU CAMHEAD!!!!
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budman
Apr 9, 2015, 11:15 AM
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Pretty funny! In the early 70's when I started climbing there you either led it, top roped it, or aided it. As to the retrobolting, just not cool. Not all routes need to be bolted or made safer for the masses. You can top rope them or just not climb them out of respect. But respect is just out the window for most, their just gonna do it and F... the rest of you. Chisel and hammer work really well plus a little epoxy. Must admit I've placed a bolt or two and thought later not cool and went back and removed it. Then again it's just climbing.
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PAbeekeeper
Apr 10, 2015, 5:41 PM
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Raining today, so will wander over to Stover once things dry out Monday or Tuesday to see what's up (and get in a little fishing now that trout season is under way...). In the meantime, I dug out my 2001 edition of the 1992 Reilley guidebook for Stover and the first ascent of Far Face Corner is unknown, so there's no telling whether it was trad or TR. Also, this is what it has to say about the quality of the rock:
And of local ethics:
(This post was edited by PAbeekeeper on Apr 10, 2015, 8:35 PM)
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PAbeekeeper
Apr 14, 2015, 2:38 AM
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Most important bit first: If anyone sees my keys down by Far Face, give a holler. Might also be upstream a good bit at the Iron Bridge picnic area, where we had lunch.
Anyway, stopped in there today and it has not been retrobolted. Lots of convenience anchors thanks to the ASCA (which is arguably a good thing WRT the trees), but otherwise no bolts on the climb. Also, looks like Far Face Corner will go trad, but not sure it's currently the PG rating in the guidebook.... Pretty much everything is outwardly flaring and has a light coating of mud on it. Plus there's a large ledge halfway up that is a danger even on TR if you blow the 8 foot 45degree roof section with minimal feet just above it. Which IMO was nowhere near 5.4.... I realize I've gotten old and fat, but managed to grunt my way up several 5.8's there last Fall. Admittedly I was mostly using this as an excuse to go fishing in the 2+ miles of Class III whitewater below the cliff that's stocked with trout, but hot damn was getting shut down by a 5.4 embarrassing.
(This post was edited by PAbeekeeper on Apr 14, 2015, 4:27 AM)
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PAbeekeeper
Apr 14, 2015, 3:21 AM
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iron106 wrote: Apparently his elaborate anchor was in question by other climbers.
Assuming the report of it being on Far Face Corner is correct I have a hard time believing this, given it's a bolted anchor with an easy top out thanks to a convenient tree just out of frame on the left of this pic (which was what was traditionally used for the TR anchor before the bolts went in a couple years back):
As for the approach, this pic is from the top of the climb and my wife (on the right in orange pants) is well under 100 feet away and 2/3 of the way down to the base of the climb. The trail runs down the obvious gully to her right, so basically from where she's standing to the large diameter tree in the top center of the pic.
Shot from the base:
90 degree pano that drastically exagerates the distance from the descent trail to the base of the climb.... It is well under 100 feet. Descent trail is up the right hand side of the pic to the small square of blue sky. Basically a wet staircase.
As for my being hard on the rock quality, well, I used to use Stover as the worst case scenario for testing my gear designs. Slick rock, usually covered in mud, fractured, and rotten rock randomly interspersed with solid stuff..... There's a good reason I don't trust cams there, as I've seen too many pull out of textbook placements when weighted. Also seen a lot blow out under light funk testing, cratering the rock. Have also have seen nuts and tricams blow out the rock when funked, which is not surprising given how fractured shale generally is... Unless it's square peg/round hole and I could clearly hang a truck off it, I'm not a fan of trusting it at Stover. Simply seen too many placements blow out there. Admittedly I was looking to blow them out, but isn't that the point of testing placements?
Typical rock throughout the cliff.... Solid stuff with fractures that exfoliate with the seasonal freeze/thaw cycle. And slick as snot to boot.
(This post was edited by PAbeekeeper on Apr 14, 2015, 4:06 AM)
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PAbeekeeper
Apr 14, 2015, 4:49 AM
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iron106 wrote: The rock is fine. I have lead a few routes there and have no deathwish whatsoever. I have read it is good practice for placing gear in the sandstone out west.
Not to put a fine point on it, Iron106, but what do you see in this pic of the anchor at the top of Far Face Corner? I see an expansion bolt on the right in rock with multiple horizontal fracture lines, above a large hole where rock that used to be there is no longer, likely due to normal freeze/thaw cycles on a fractured cliff that gets a lot of water/seepage.
Does this strike you as a "good" bolt placement in rock that is "fine"? Are you aware that expansion bolts work by way of trying to pry apart layers of rock?
Thankfully the rock the bolt on the left is in is much better. They probably should have put the hanger on top, well back from the edge with a chain hanging down, but Stover gets a lot of traffic from the pot-smoking highshooler crowd who like to vandalize things. Frankly I'm surprised the convenience anchors have lasted this long.
(This post was edited by PAbeekeeper on Apr 14, 2015, 5:12 AM)
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iron106
Apr 14, 2015, 1:22 PM
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Wow great pics of the area.
I have no idea why there are any bolts down there. 50' of static is all you need to reach the trees.
I have climbed that corner in my bare feet, when i forgot my rock shoes. So for me is goes easy enough.
Its so short i never considered leading it and don't have a desire to. However, i think it's doable.....for me. There are plenty of routes there i can't lead and will never lead.
I was summarizing an anchor set up someone stated he was using, i deleted what i originally copied, because it was immaterial to the accident.
If you want to know what they said he was using for an anchor set up, I'll gladly tell you.
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abazaba288
Apr 14, 2015, 6:37 PM
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I almost always rap off of single pitch anchors. These miscommunication errors can very easily be resolved by the climber taking their safety into their own hands by rapping routes whenever possible. Eliminating the belayer from the equation is the single greatest way to avoid miscommunication errors between the two parties. I work as a professional rock guide and operate in the business of risk management. I advise my clients to rap whenever possible.
Best regards,
Gumby Snyder
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PAbeekeeper
Apr 14, 2015, 11:56 PM
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iron106 wrote: I have no idea why there are any bolts down there. 50' of static is all you need to reach the trees.
Convenience, and laziness.
In reply to: I have climbed that corner in my bare feet, when i forgot my rock shoes. So for me is goes easy enough.
I recall it being easy too, but that was years (and 40 pounds) ago. 
In reply to: Its so short i never considered leading it and don't have a desire to. However, i think it's doable.....for me. There are plenty of routes there i can't lead and will never lead.
Which is why I specifically asked about the rock quality where the anchor bolt is... That corner is rotten and flaring, and while it may be easy, it's all too easy for gear to pull there.
In reply to: I was summarizing an anchor set up someone stated he was using, i deleted what i originally copied, because it was immaterial to the accident. If you want to know what they said he was using for an anchor set up, I'll gladly tell you.
Would love to know, as I simply can't get my head around just how many things had to go wrong all at the same time for him to have decked. Not only would he have to had miscommunicated with his belayer, but also neglected to clip either of the anchor bolts, slung the tree, clipped whatever anchor he built.... 
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iron106
Apr 15, 2015, 1:01 PM
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From FB.
Not the same climb he fell on i am assuming,
This only confuses the issue for me, and is mostly unrelated. However you asked,
"Two tow straps hooked to bolts or tree at the top of obnoxious partner. At the rope end of the straps were two 3-4' chains which held a bar with 2 loops for the rope. I know the rock is a little sharp over obnoxious, though hanging 20+ pounds of anchor from a slope is risky to set up and take down if your not clipped in the whole time..."
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PAbeekeeper
Apr 15, 2015, 2:24 PM
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That's beyond confusing, as it directly contradicts the earlier FB quote WRT where he was. I didn't poke my head around to Obnoxious Partner, but assume it has bolts at the top since everything else around it does.
Also, "tow straps"? "bar"? Sounds like a "sport rappeler" to me, which Stover gets an awful lot of. Annoyingly they tend to take over things like Practice Face, Tango, etc. rather than the middle of the cliff where no one ever goes.
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budman
Apr 16, 2015, 3:28 AM
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As to Obnoxious Partner and anchors it did not as of last spring as I led it for the umpteen time when back for my daughters wedding. You commonly use Dead Tree anchors (thanks to Mike Flood) and the tree near the top of Partner. I've led Far Face and the L facing corner as well many times and I rate it PG, just don't miss any placements.
Every time I've led Far Face I always brought up my partner to the top after discussing it before leaving the ground, no miss communication there.
You keep whining about the shitty rock but there is plenty of cool climbs that protect, you just have to be aware and careful. I've climbed from one end of the cliff to other and just about all the other places up and down stream. Stover gave me a good lead head when it came to Choss.
All in all be careful and have fun.
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