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enigma
Mar 25, 2003, 7:24 AM
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Seems like there's an animosity going on, and its difficult to understand, even though I realize the differences, in the risk factors of placing gear.
(Especially noticeable in a places predominately trad,such as j.tree.)
Any Thoughts???
:?: :?: :?: :?: :?:
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skog
Mar 25, 2003, 9:08 AM
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I have just started trad climbing coming from a sport background and while i dont bear any grudges i understand where it stems from. Sport climbing doesnt require as much commitment as trad; beyond clipping and climbing there isnt nearly as much thought that goes into it. Its a great way to go out and experience routes and climb safely in otherwise unprotectable areas, but it does not get as close to the true essence of climbing. Trad is exploratory in nature, you're out there on your own and relying on your own skills and experience to have a good time and stay safe. You can be up and through a trad pitch and not leave a trace, but with sport youre always following lines of bolts. While a person could become a seasoned sport climber in a year or two, some people spend decades developing (and always improving) their trad skills. Sport leading is far more forgiving and its somewhat understandable that trad climbers, who trust their life to their skills, look down upon it.
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gawd
Mar 25, 2003, 9:13 AM
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boldering, trad, sport blah blah blah...it is all climbing. the difference stems from what each person takes and gives to it. that is the beauty of the sport, it will always challenge you and keep you guessing.
people whom feel the need to differentate have their own issues. i believe it is called inadequacy.
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punk
Mar 25, 2003, 10:18 AM
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The reason for this crap is one word EGOISM!!!
I have envy so many sport climbers that I saw them walking on 12’s and so on …
I think if one would like to become a good trad leader he should start as a Sport leader and if he would like to become better Trad leader he should do allot more Sport climbing
The two focus on different aspect of climbing
One on the Technical difficulty and the other on the Adventure …climb as u wish and don’t mind the pimply faces…after all we climb for personal satisfaction
And no respectable Jacka$$ Trad climber will admit to how they envy sport climbers and their finesse
:oops:
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mesomorf
Mar 25, 2003, 1:30 PM
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Once upon a time, there was a widespread belief among climbers that the challenge of climbing was both mental and physical.
The source of these challenges was the rock itself. To meet the challenges meant accepting the rock on its own terms.
Then came the technology of the bolt. Bolts were placed only on lead. This made for long runouts, thus preserving the mental challenge.
Then came the technology of the battery-powered drill, and the acceptance of drilling routes on rappel. This was accepted because the Europeans were climbing so much better than the Americans at the time.
Rappel bolters (aka sport climbers) descended upon crags across the world like locusts. Many cliffs became grids of bolts. When the climbing turned out to be a little harder than current standards, battery powered drills were sometimes used to carve holds into the rock.
Climbing became a game of physical challenge only. There started to be a lot more climbers. More random climber's trails, more trash, more dog shit, more yuppies in SUVs in the parking lot. An activity once practiced only by the lunatic fringe became mainstream.
Many climbs that trad climbers had been eyeing for years, biding their time until they were ready for the challenge, were bolted, sent, and forgotten.
And that's why some trad climbers don't respect sport climbers. They feel that sport climbers have no respect for them or for the rock.
[Edited for grammar and to insert the word "sometimes."]
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camhead
Mar 25, 2003, 2:14 PM
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honestly, it is not and should not be too much of an issue anymore. comments such as mesomorf's (and the whole topic of this thread) just reflect closemindedness.
most of the the strongest and top climbers today are proficient in both sport and trad. do you hear Tommy Caldwell or Yuji Hirayama making stupid blanket statements about why "all sport climbers are wusses?" it's all climbing, and for the most part, the ethics of individual crags are respected by all. A sporto that disses trad is likely just spineless, and a traddie that disses sport is probably just weak.
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crag
Mar 25, 2003, 2:33 PM
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Shut-up & Climb! Don't worry about what others think & say, it shouldn't matter in the least bit.
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tim
Mar 25, 2003, 3:23 PM
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You know, a lot of the hardest-core trads of the 80's (Robyn Erbesfeld, Randy Leavitt, etc.) who were putting up 5.12/5.13 death routes left and right, were the same people who got the ball rolling on sport climbing. I am not sure whether the more recent additions to the trad-styled brigade know this.
I don't admire drilled-out choss piles but I do admire the ability of the pioneers. It seems like, somewhere along the line, the point of using bolts to protect featureless faces got lost, and people started bolting next to protectable cracks, etc. which is hard to respect in any circumstance.
Anyways, the current favorite flamewar is Boldering vs. Everything Else. You should probably cross-post an inquiry about that to b.com, and see what happens. (because everyone knows that Dean Potter is a crappy bolderer, right? Don't give in to temptation and let facts get in the way of religion...)
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jumaringjeff
Mar 25, 2003, 4:01 PM
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I personally don't give two schitts about WHAT kind of climbing I do. I just love to climb. It's a physical and mental challenge, and for me, the mental challenge is good therapy which a fairly insane artist such as myself desperately needs.
The only animosity between climbing 'camps' I've found is on this site. Everywhere I've climbed (Maine, NH, Mass, Vermont, Texas, Gunks, Hawaii, Japan) there were boulderers, sport climbers, and trad climbers, and it always seemed like one big happy family.
I believe that several people (who shall remain nameless) like to go online where they can have a sense of anonymity and vent all their opinions about the climbing community. However, in my opinion, this doesn't necessarily represent the general consensus of climbers. There may be a handful of people out there that are close-minded and ignorant, but you find those people no matter where you are. If we can just remember that such people are in the minority, the subject of this post should not even be an issue.
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tanner
Mar 25, 2003, 4:48 PM
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Climbing is climbing. I do both.
Try leading a clean slab on gear!
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ljthawk
Mar 25, 2003, 4:58 PM
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Here's a question I don't know the answer to, but a different spin on the above question.
"Can non trad climbers be considered real Rock Climbers, or just Climbers"
Here's some background to the question.
1. Gym climbers who never climb indoors are not Rock Climbers per say, they never grab real rock; it's totally different. Sort of like how tree climbers aren't rock climbers.
2. Pure "sport" climbers who don't do anything else don't have to learn rope work and proper anchors beyond clipping bolts or extending TR bolts. They don't have to learn equalization, natural rigging, pro placement, etc. True they are climbing real rock, but not utilizing what the rock has to offer; it's like gym climbing outdoors. True it requires good climbing skills, but it doesn't require any rope / climbing equipment skills.
3. "Trad" climbing brings in a whole new element of using the resources the rock / nature gives you to protect the climb. Protecting traverses, using equalized gear, evaluating rock quality, how to set up bomber clean anchors / belay stations, etc. are all important skills.
For the record I enjoy all forms of climbing, bouldering, sport, trad and TR.
Let the debate begin.
L.J.
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djnibs
Mar 25, 2003, 5:02 PM
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alright. sport vs. trad. both are climbing. both are fun. both have their own mental games. If you want to be hard core then go and do some free stylin 5.15's. there is no reason why people discrimanant against each other. stop the hate. its all climbing no matter how you look at it, unless your not having fun!!!!! so everyone log off and go climb!!!!!!!!!!! :D
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curt
Mar 25, 2003, 5:20 PM
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In reply to: Seems like there's an animosity going on, and its difficult to understand, even though I realize the differences, in the risk factors of placing gear. (Especially noticeable in a places predominately trad,such as j.tree.) Any Thoughts??? :?: :?: :?: :?: :?:
I think the answer is fairly simple. Those schooled in trad learned to climb with a strict set of ethics.
And, ethics and style have nothing to do with sport climbing. Before you bash me for saying this--this statement is paraphrased from comments made by kalcario and jt512, who are sport climbers.
Curt
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mtnjohn
Mar 25, 2003, 5:34 PM
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I also climb both styles
whatever's available to me on given day is wht I'll climb
I prefer trad and get way more from it
If lead sport at my limit it feels good
when lead trad at my limit it's awesome!
I just get so much more from trad
i can't explain it.
to me it's what climbing is meant to feel like
I 'd rather spend a day doing a multi pitch crack than working a hard 40' sport route.
We all have preferences and opinions, mine just happen to be right
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drkodos
Mar 25, 2003, 5:34 PM
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Sport climbing....is neither.
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dingus
Mar 25, 2003, 11:34 PM
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The notion that all "Trad" climbers have stict ethics and employ "style" when they climb is the most ridiculous thing I've ever read. I'd say some trad climbers have strict ethics (and others have even stricter ethics!). And I've seen some tradsters style their way up climbs but I've seen plenty more hack their way up a route.
I've also seen sportsters boldly run it out and the better ones are ALL about style. The style is just different.
What sticks in the craw of a lot of old tradsters is the lack of respect most sportsters hold for objective hazards, and their willingness to defy the old rules. And what sticks in the craw of many sportsters is the heavy handed insistance that tradsters have concerning 'my way or the highway' and their tired old habit of granting rocks some sort of holy status.
Most of us simply climb, maybe one day trad (which includes aid and bouldering, I don't care what old Tom Higgins once wrote about 15 years ago), maybe one day sport. I know I do and so do most of my mates.
Be secure in who ever you are! Don't look to others to validate your opinions and don't accept anything simply because some oldster says, 'because that's the way it is.'
So there!
DMT
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cloudbreak
Mar 26, 2003, 12:01 AM
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It's just a big pissing contest!!! ......LAME!!! Dingus, you pretty much nailed it on the head.
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mhr2000
Mar 26, 2003, 12:17 AM
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This is a really simple question to answer. What anyone says about anything only matters as much as you let it.
In my case, I don't care, so what anyone says doesn't matter!
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vegastradguy
Mar 26, 2003, 12:51 AM
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rock = :D
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vegandago
Mar 26, 2003, 1:16 AM
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i don't do either sport or trad currently but i understand why trad climbers get upset. It is their respect of nature... and for a lot of people, climbing is one of the few true experiences one can have with nature these days... and to be climbing on this wonderful rock that has been slowly cracked and corroded for centuries to make it what it is... it would be rather disturbing to many, to see a piece of metal sticking into it. I guess one day everything will be commercialized, even the rocks.
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lox
Mar 26, 2003, 1:43 AM
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TOP OUT, BITCHEZ.
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mesomorf
Mar 26, 2003, 1:50 AM
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In reply to: comments such as mesomorf's (and the whole topic of this thread) just reflect closemindedness.
H-o-o-o-l-d on there camhead! I didn't pass any judgements, I just told things the way they happened.
enigma said the animosity was difficult to understand, so I thought I'd bring her up to speed.
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flying_dutchman
Mar 26, 2003, 2:35 AM
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its probably cause sport climbing resembles indoor rockclimbing so much.
Bolts every 4 feet, preplaced draws, stick clipping...
im just gonna add that i have climbed sport but i climb by far more trad cause the sport climbs in squamish are mostly sick slabs and friction.
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petsfed
Mar 26, 2003, 3:09 AM
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So wait, working a route (with preplaced pro) is strictly a sport thing? Whoa! That means headpointing is only done on sport climbs, even though there are precisely ZERO bolts on climbs worked that way. Wierd.
I used to look down my nose at sport climbing and all of its low suffering glory. Then I tried it myself (and have great stories from my friends of jugs filled with their blood) and decided otherwise. I still measure my leading ability based on how hard I can pull on a trad climb, but I enjoy long easy sport routes more than long easy trad routes.
As rrradam would say, its all climbing brutha.
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wildtrail
Mar 26, 2003, 4:06 AM
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I respect sport. I prefer trad and steer away from sport, but all climbers are equal to me. Well, that's a lie. I don't respect climbers that "diss" other climbers or make fun of them for the medium they have chosen. It's all apples and oranges, but a climber, is a climber, is a climber. Boulder, sport, trad. Does not matter.
You're cool in my book.
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