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yotrepo
Apr 30, 2003, 7:22 AM
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Any advice on leading a three person team? Both have limited trad experience and I will do all the leading. My idea: I have two 10mm ropes, and I'd lead on both (kind of like doubles), and put one climber on each line. However, I was thinking I would use only one rope to lead on, since my 2 potential belayers have no experience using/belaying with double ropes. Instead of having both belay, one could rest and communication would be simplified. I would clip the other rope only to gear that would protect the second (@ changes in direction/traverses, etc.).
Any comments or advice? I haven't climbed trad with a 3-person team for awhile, and my previous experiences were time-consuming gumby nightmares. Domo Arigato.
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apollodorus
Apr 30, 2003, 7:38 AM
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Dude, lead on one rope, and trail the other one on the back of your harness. When you get to the belay, bring them up separately on the two ropes. BUT, you gotta have your schnitt together to belay two at once. You HAVE to use two ATCs or other belay devices, and HAVE to be able to manage both.
This is NOT for newbies!
A better idea may be to have them tie in 20+/- feet apart (alpine butterfly knot for the first guy), and belay them together. They simul-second the pitch. Have the better second climb first, and keep the rope tight to him. He has to pace himself to the other guy, so there is no slack in the rope. This works great when nobody is going to fall (i.e. easy pitch).
Otherwise, belay one guy up, he anchors in, then you bring the other guy up. It takes longer, but there is always time to be safe.
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solo
Apr 30, 2003, 2:01 PM
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Get doubles.
If that's not an option than I would do as Apollodorus suggests i.e. bring only one rope and have the seconds simul-climb some 5 meters apart. Only I would let the better (or more confident) of them to be the last on the rope. The rope between them does not need to be tight all the time in such case.
If time is not a concern bring two ropes and have the second trail a rope and clip it in the protection as he climbs. Than bring up the third on your team. This allows both your less experienced team mates to see how you placed protection and learn. And of course it eliminates the dangers of simul-climbing.
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beyond_gravity
Apr 30, 2003, 2:09 PM
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2 ATC's or the like sounds like a bad idea to me.
I think one ATC and a GriGri would work better (if you have one). I wouldn't want to manage 2 non-autolocking belay devices at once. Actually i'd probably rather use 2 munter hitches directly off the anchour insted of 2 stich plate belay devices
You could also just buy a Reverso.
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valygrl
Apr 30, 2003, 2:10 PM
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I second the motion for doubles. If not, lead on one rope, trail a second rope (if you can, make that one a double-rope for lightness). The only real thing I have to add here is belay on a Reverso or b52, in auto-lock mode off the anchor.
I just did this a couple weeks ago, took two Yosemite neophytes up After 6. Worked great.
Cheers,
Anna
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bluedubbed
Apr 30, 2003, 3:27 PM
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Hey.
Did a lot of multipitch in Red Rocks w/ three people. We used two ropes. After the leader built an anchor the other two followed at the same time ~10 feet behind each other. We used a Reverso in auto-locking mode to belay 2 at once. It worked great. Hope this helps.
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danielb
Apr 30, 2003, 3:41 PM
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My £0.02
When I have done I have always used 2 half ropes and had 1 second belaying me and the other resting. Clip into the ropes as normal and then when bringing up the top 2nds have the least inexperience go first about 15ft in front of the more experienced person that way they can get advice etc and are not left behind.
I usually belay both of them off on ATC as they should be moving at about the same rate once they are both moving...
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wallrat
Apr 30, 2003, 3:41 PM
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In Europe it's pretty popular for the guides (esp. the French)to belay two people at once. They use a shunt. Petzl makes them.
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intrepid02
Apr 30, 2003, 3:42 PM
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Hey. I've done this tons of times. I usually use two ropes but only lead on one (simplifies things for gumbys, and me). I clip the non-leading rope to my belay loop though. If you have to clip it to a piece, this makes it a lot easier to do than if you have that thing back on your haul loop.
I used to use the Reverso as other people have mentioned and that worked pretty well, but... there are some issues. Namely that it doesn't work too good w/ thin ropes (may not lock up) and that to lower a second you have to set up this total nightmare rigging system. So... Buy a TRE Rope Brake. I just got one recently and it is freakin awesome! You can pick it up at pmirope.com
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prenj
Apr 30, 2003, 6:40 PM
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I am not climbing in group of three very often. Last season we climbed one 5.8 climb in Squamish. Three of us (in return from mountaineering camp in Tantalus Range) climbed multi-pitch route "old" way. We climbed on one rope. I was at the middle tied on prusik and I didn't have any fancy equipment. First person was belaying only last one in the group. Third person never climbed outside of the gym before. We showed him how to use tool and remove friends and nuts.
If we pushed harder we could pass two persons parties in front of us but we were nice! Weather was awesome and we chat on the belays and enjoyed our time together.
I don't know is this valuable to you but it could be option for emergencies only!
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hooker
Apr 30, 2003, 7:33 PM
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Climbing, like sex, works best with two.
Sure, three can be fun sometimes, but it is usually become more awkward and complicated then fun.
Best advice: Get some real partners.
Why the need to show-off to some newbies? Take a closer look at why you are actually doing this.
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yotrepo
Apr 30, 2003, 11:54 PM
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Hooker: Why the need to show-off to some newbies? Take a closer look at why you are actually doing this.
Not so much showing off as taking my good friends who recently got psyched on climbing and showing them what I love: multi-pitch trad. I shouldn't even respond to that comment. All the others-- thank you for the advice. I think I'm gonna buy a reverso (I might have to wait until next paycheck for double ropes). One question-- I've looked at a reverso, but never used it. If one of the seconds falls, it will automatically lock both climbers off, no? If this is the case, the other climber must stop or he will not be belayed properly...no? There must be other threads about the reverso. I will check.
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sandbag
May 1, 2003, 12:02 AM
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I like the second or third Idea Apollo suggested, just think safety first. Dont end up like these guys in a former post:
Three years ago on the weekend of my 30th birthday, a friend surprise me with a visit and a weekend of climbing in Utah's Wasatch Front.
The weekend started out on friday with a little bouldering in Little Cottonwood Canyon (LCC) and then some good crack climbing. We began Saturday with couple of warm-up routes in the easily accessible Parley's Canyon area. Parley's isn't stellar, but it is close by and has a couple of nice 10-ish routes worth doing. It was me my friend E and my wife J, and we were having a good time. (It is worth noting here that my wife J was new to climbing and her skill and confidence was progessing nicely, and she was really starting to enjoy the sport). After a couple of routes we were getting ready to pack up and move on to Big Cottonwood Canyon for some nice sport on quartzite when a three-some of noobies showed up.
They setting up a top-rope (with the belay from the top of the route) on the route we were planning on using as an exit to avoid a nasty scramble out. E and I got a bad vibe from the group after the first guy asked us to tie him into the rope because he didn't know how to tie a figure-8 knot. He flailed his way up this easy 5.7 ladder and we were about to start our accent whne it happened. I looked up to see what they (the noobies) were up to and I say one of them falling twards me and my group. It look like he was being lowered off the route and it didn't really register that he was actually falling. I looked up a split second later and i saw him bouce of a high ledge. At this point I didn't think, I just push my wife and E out of the way and took cover. His near 200 pounds landed right where we were standing.
I didn't see his initial impact, but the sound is something I will never, EVER forget. I did turn after the initial impact only to see him bouce back from the face about 20 feet. The entire length of their rope followed him the 110 feet to the bottom of the route. I approached him to evaluate the situation. Not being able to see his entire form from behind the tree in my path, I expect to find a dead man. I didn't. He was alive. Severly injured, but alive. I yelled to the jack-ass up top to call 9-1-1.
The poor bastard was SO, SO lucky. He seemed to have taken the full force of the initial impact on his right leg. It, his right leg, was destoryed. His femur was mush, hip shattered, and tibia and fibula broken in many places, and his ankle was toast. He was unconcious initially, but not because of any head injuries. He broke both wrists, his left heel was nearly removed, and his left ankle was broken. He had no internal injuries, no head injuries, it seemed that he did not harm the femoral artery in his serverly damaged right leg so he was not bleedy out too much. He was DAMN lucky.
My wife was histerical. She will never climb again. She hates it when I climb because of this. E ran up top, up the sketchy, steep trail in his Teva's to check on the guy at the top. E found the first climber (the one whos knot we tied earlier) just sitting there with this surprised look on his face and severe rope burn on the palms of both hands. He looked at E and said, "I don't know what I'm doing, what happened?" E noticed that all their gear was brand new with the product tags still on each piece, fresh from REI. The belay they set-up was two quickdraws clipped in to the two anchors at the top of the route. They threaded the rope through the end biners on the draws and that was it. As soon as the poor bastard on the ground below weighted the rope he began to fall. It seems that kid at the top (the 'belayer') tried to slow or stop his buddies decent, but that was impossible because NO belay device was used. The only belay device in the entire group was on the harness on the fallen climber. The 'belayer' never called 9-1-1 and E had to run to a nearby house to call.
During this time I was trying to keep the fallen climber calm, keep my wife J calm and try to keep the fallen climber as still as possible because I did not know at this point that he had not injured his back or neck.
We sat there for more than thirty minuted before the first resucue vehicle showed up. It was a county sherriff, he immediately called for the Life Flight and the local SAR team. The on ramp to I-80 East below us was closed. The SAR team and the Life Flight helo took this space and the fallen climber had to be lowered about 200 feet to the helo.
My wife was too freaked to hike out and the sherriff drove her around to our car. E and I hiked out less one rope and a pair of climbing shoes that we fouled by the fallen climber's blood and feces that exploded from him when he hit the deck.
When we got to our car we found the 'belayer' walking around confused. He saw us approach and the only thing to emerge from his lips was. "Is he dead?" It took most of what self control I had left to not beat him into worse shape than his fallen friend.
This ended our weekend early. We returned to my apartment and just sat their in silence for probably 3 hours. I was so angry. I hated those noobie climber, I still hate them. They had no business being out there. Because of them I have to remember this terrible weekend. I will never forget the feeling, the smell, the sound. My wife will never climb again.
This was almost 3 years ago and I have only just gotten back on lead. It has been a slow road getting back on the sharp-end, and I am not very confident. That accident took years of training and confidence away from me. It took climbing away from my wife and it left all three of us scared. E got back on lead the following year, maybe sooner. The fallen climber ended up with a right leg about 1 inch shorter than its original length and probably a limp, according to the boy's father whom my wife talked to by phone the afternoon of the accident. I hope to never meet this person again as I will probably say and do things I will later regret.
On the road again,
HolmBrew
Dont do the crime if you cant do the time......
:roll:
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neph
May 1, 2003, 12:24 AM
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In reply to: You HAVE to use two ATCs or other belay devices, and HAVE to be able to manage both.
eh? Why would you need 2? Shouldn't you be able to use both slots of the ATC? I would think using 2 belay devices would be harder than using both slots of one.
Anyway, I would say, for inexperienced climbers, or for more difficult climbs, to have the 2nd trail the rope for the 3rd. It will take longer, but will be the least complex way to do it.
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davidji
May 1, 2003, 12:53 AM
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In reply to: eh? Why would you need 2? Shouldn't you be able to use both slots of the ATC? I would think using 2 belay devices would be harder than using both slots of one. |
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mtman
May 1, 2003, 1:07 AM
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that is a terrable storie just shows that you should NEVER climb if you don't have the experance or beeing with someone who dose.
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bandycoot
May 1, 2003, 1:20 AM
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Until you feel UBER comfortable belaying two people at the same time try this:
You lead with one rope like normal, build anchor and belay 2nd up to you.
2nd has 2nd rope also attached to harness that he threads through gear (if pitch is traversing) to protect 3rd.
3rd is belayed up by 2nd while you rerack gear off of 2nd (provided gear was cleaned due to no traverse) and do other things like make sure your lead rope is flaked.
As soon as 3rd gets to ledge, you lead again.
2nd and 3rd can switch off carrying pack/cleaning (3rd carries pack since more strenuous to clean sometimes).
Another benefit of this setup is that if a ledge only fits 1-2, you bring the 2nd up, lead to next anchor (you'll need 3 anchors if you do this) then 2nd brings up 3rd to anchor below you, 2nd comes up to you then brings 3rd up. You just skipped a cramped crappy belay!
This method requires no extra knowledge from the leader and is easy to deal with problems and such.
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dead_milkman
May 2, 2003, 5:28 PM
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In reply to: Dude, lead on one rope, and trail the other one on the back of your harness. When you get to the belay, bring them up separately on the two ropes. BUT, you gotta have your schnitt together to belay two at once. You HAVE to use two ATCs or other belay devices, and HAVE to be able to manage both.
Two ATCs? No shot. On double ropes (or two 10’s, whichever) it is no problem at all to belay two followers with one ATC, just set up as you would for a rappel. Better yet use a GiGi (stich plate, Reverso) – popular up here in the Great White North, as well as in Europe… Americans need not fear the GiGi… or the overhand to join rap lines, but that’s another issue.
Even better yet, on technical rock routes it might be better for you to lead on one rope, get you second to tie into the ends of both ropes, and clip gear with the second rope after unclipping from the first. The third person can follow on the second rope after dude A reaches the belay. Similar to what you suggested, but prevents him having to drag 20+ lbs. of ropes up a route…
Cheers,
DM
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bandycoot
May 2, 2003, 6:24 PM
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20+ lbs of ropes? What kind of rope are you using? My 60m 10.5mm is about 9.3 lbs. My system will save the energy of the leader since they won't be trailing the 2nd rope while setting pro, the 2nd will be trailing that weight and they're safe so who cares? Other than that, if you have twin or half ropes this is a good idea. Otherwise, it is a waste of the lead climber's energy to bring both ropes up simultaneously if he isn't going to belay them both at the same time. Also, one person manages 1 rope at a time my way. Much easier! Keep it simple for people asking how to do stuff!
Josh
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cracklover
May 2, 2003, 9:05 PM
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If you're thinking of buying the Reverso for situations like this, consider buying the TRE Sirius brake instead. It's supposed to be similar to the Reverso, but without some of the drawbacks, and more versatile.
GO
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dead_milkman
May 2, 2003, 10:49 PM
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In reply to: 20+ lbs of ropes? What kind of rope are you using? My 60m 10.5mm is about 9.3 lbs. My system will save the energy of the leader since they won't be trailing the 2nd rope while setting pro, the 2nd will be trailing that weight and they're safe so who cares? Other than that, if you have twin or half ropes this is a good idea. Otherwise, it is a waste of the lead climber's energy to bring both ropes up simultaneously if he isn't going to belay them both at the same time. Also, one person manages 1 rope at a time my way. Much easier! Keep it simple for people asking how to do stuff! Josh
OK, you're going to have to learn to read... pehaps you should try one more time with what I wrote - it's exactly the same as your proposal. In addition, if you have twin or half ropes, not only is it a *good* idea for the leader to utilize both, it happens to be the only "safe" method of climbing on twins/halfs. And two light 60 m 10.0 mm ropes weigh about 18 pounds... So I'm off by 2... Now add some water to the equation... ;)
DM
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grigriese
May 3, 2003, 12:04 AM
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Your post is frightening!
I've done a 3 person team with my boyfriend and best friend several times before, and after reading this post I'm thankful at least one of us knew what to do! Ben, boyfriend, would lead on one line, set an anchor to belay the second from, who would trail the rope that the third would TR from. We did a route where the second and third simul-climbed and he belayed with a reverso. It was a lot of work for him, too much in my opinion - not worth it and he didn't complain - he's the best. The worst part is that he had a difficult time taking up the slack belaying two climbers, it was very tiring! Lot of work for him for such an easy route!
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tradclimber2
May 3, 2003, 4:37 AM
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yotrepo, and others -
If you are climbing with beginning climbers, try this idea, everyone will benefit (this is assuming that you are NOT in a big hurry - if you were, why are you climbing with TWO beginners anyway - you are the 'patient' teacher, remember):
You lead on one rope, set your anchor, etc. Bring up ONE climber who trails a second rope, with the third climber tied in to the other end of the second rope (be sure they checked ALL knots before the second starts up). THEN, after the second clips in, have the second belay the third climber up for practice (in belaying and rope management) while you just hang back and enjoy the view, a snack, nap, or whatever. Then, on the next pitch, have the second and third climbers switch so each has a chance to belay, etc. Yes, I know, this sounds like a big hassle and you do have to have VERY GOOD rope management skills, but, like I said, everyoone in your group can benefit, AND your friends will have a better experience of it.
Of course, I am assuming (always a bad idea) that you are climbing a route that does not have a waiting line behind you, you have plenty of time, and at least one of your partners can safely belay - in which case, it may not be a good idea to be there in the first place.
grigriese, I agree with you. Trying to have two beginners simul-climb can be a lot of work for the belayer unless they are VERY experienced at it - IMHO to be used only in an urgency.
Ben - not grigriese's boyfriend :)
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ergophobe
May 3, 2003, 7:33 AM
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In reply to: You HAVE to use two ATCs or other belay devices, and HAVE to be able to manage both. This is NOT for newbies! A better idea may be to have them tie in 20+/- feet apart (alpine butterfly knot for the first guy), and belay them together.
No, you do not need two belay devices and should not use two belay devices. You need a Reverso, a New Alp Plaquette or a Gigi (not Gri-gri). The next best thing is two munters on separate locking biners. This is much better than two ATCs. You must clip the belay device (or munters) directly to the belay and it should be about shoulder to head height if possible. You should practice with the setup before you try it out on newbies.
The alpine butterfly is a BAD idea - if one person falls and needs to hang, the other person is stuck where he is. Plus, it requires the people to climb at the same speed and maintain a constant distance between themselves, which is a lot to ask someone with little experience.
In reply to: In Europe it's pretty popular for the guides (esp. the French)to belay two people at once. They use a shunt. Petzl makes them.
Actually, I've lived and climbed a fair bit in Europe, and I've never seen that. I've always seen guides use the New Alp Plaquette, which is now superceded by the Reverso. The onlyway to go for parties of three. If one person needs to hang and rest, you can still belay the other person
In reply to: Climbing, like sex, works best with two. Sure, three can be fun sometimes, but it is usually become more awkward and complicated then fun. Best advice: Get some real partners. Why the need to show-off to some newbies?
Leave the guy alone. I have plenty of climbing partners, but I take great pleasure in introducing friends to the sport and I like to get them up on a nice multi-pitch for their first climb if possible. This isn't called "showing off" it's called "generosity".
Climbing with three is no problem. I've done some fairly long climbs with three (Steck-Salathe, most recently) and it works fine. I would add that the first one day ascent of the Nose was in a party of three, and I seriously doubt that was because Bridwell wanted to show off to his partners or because he couldn't find real partners to climb with.
Tom
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brutusofwyde
May 3, 2003, 5:36 PM
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In reply to: Climbing with three is no problem. I've done some fairly long climbs with three (Steck-Salathe, most recently) and it works fine. I would add that the first one day ascent of the Nose was in a party of three, and I seriously doubt that was because Bridwell wanted to show off to his partners or because he couldn't find real partners to climb with. Tom
Gotta agree with Erogphobe here. I've done numerous climbs with parties of three, sometimes with both seconds following at once (Snake Dike, where we climbed faster than the party of two behind us) sometimes one-at-a-time (Two ascents of Steck-Salathe' this way, once with Steck on the 44th anniversary of the first ascent) and it was no problem.
Reverso or Gi gi are my tools of choice for this kind of climbing.
Brutus of Wyde
P.S. -- Thanks to Ergophobe and Gung Ho for a great time last weekend at their home in Yosemite! My skin still hasn't healed from the offwidths!
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