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diplodocus
Apr 23, 2003, 6:36 AM
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The following site shows a real case of Aliens failing when improperly placed. Climb safely folks
http://www.pbase.com/phil_box/accident_at_frog_buttress_8303&page=1
http://www.pbase.com/phil_box/accident_at_frog_buttress_8303&page=3
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roughster
Apr 23, 2003, 6:51 AM
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Tipped out "Any Brand Cam" means bad poopoo.
This is not unique to Aliens. If that was a Camelot tipped out to that extent, it would have failed as well. The placer/placement failed, not the unit.
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diplodocus
Apr 23, 2003, 7:00 AM
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i thought the double axles of the Camelots allows it to be used passively, uncammed?
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atg200
Apr 23, 2003, 7:12 AM
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i suppose in theory camalots will work passively, but in reality a tipped out camalot will pull too because the shape of a camalot is not exactly optimal for any placement whatsoever. cam stops are pretty worthless on small cams IMHO - just nice to keep cams from inverting while placing them, but relying on them is a fools game.
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roughster
Apr 23, 2003, 9:26 AM
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In reply to: i thought the double axles of the Camelots allows it to be used passively, uncammed?
Yes they can be used "passively" but that requires a constriction just as a nut/hex would. The placement shown in the picture is pretty much a standard "cam" placement w/o a real constriction for any passive activity to take place.
That whole accident (at least related to that singular peiece) could have been avoided by placing a larger cam in the same spot. Though if the "tipping out" was caused by shifting of the block/section of rock which makes up one side of the crack, there would be nothing you could do which would have save the placement.
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kyhangdog
Apr 23, 2003, 12:25 PM
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Bad placement. I bet even if it were a brand with cam stops it would have pulled. Question is: how many of you place cams with some lobes not making contact. I'd almost prefer climbing further to a more sound placement if I couldn't get something to work.
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ricardol
Apr 23, 2003, 4:27 PM
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this accident was thorouhgly discussed a little while ago --
.. in thise case even camalots would not have helped, since the placements that failed were the blue and black alien ..
.. in those sizes (.1 and .2) microcamalots -- dont have cam stops .. they are single axle ..
.. more gear, or passive gear in the other placements on the climb would have helped this climbed (philbox said there was lots of other placements)
-- ricardo
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cloudbreak
Apr 23, 2003, 4:30 PM
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According to the first link, this accident hasn't happened yet, but is scheduled to happen August 3rd of this year.
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epic_ed
Apr 23, 2003, 4:43 PM
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Uh, nope. The date is displayed in a different format internationally. Most countries use the DD/MM/YY format, where as we use MM/DD/YY in the US. The accident occured on March 8th, 2003.
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mreardon
Apr 23, 2003, 4:51 PM
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Bad placement will create a bad fall. Period.
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philbox
Moderator
Apr 28, 2003, 9:46 PM
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A collegue and I rapped this route that the Aliens pulled from soon after the accident. We found that indeed the Aliens pulled because they were simply placed in positions that were far from optimal. The higher of the two pieces which was the black Alien had absolutely no chance of holding as it was placed in a position where at least two of the lobes on one end of the axle would not have been in contact with the rock.
Not six inches away was a bomber hex placement and six inches above that was a bomber 1.5 camalot placement.
The lower of the two pieces that pulled was a green Alien and our investigations found that the Alien walked in due to it not being fitted with a quickdraw. Rope jiggle walked it in. When it walked in it ended up in a position where two lobes of one side of the cam head became fully opened but still in contact with the rock. Compounding the problems this cam faced when subjected to a shock loading during the subsequent fall was the fact that the block the Alien was placed behind had some movement. When given a bit of a bash the block moved at least an eighth of an inch. This meant that this cam had no chance of holding the fall.
Where the green Alien was placed there was ample opportunity to place much better and more solid pro. Two hex placements were on either side of where the green Alien was placed and not a foot above this location was a bomber crack that would accept a 1.5 or 2 Camalot range of cams.
The next piece down from the two pieces that ripped was too low to have any effect in stopping the fall but was considered to be bomber and had it come in to play it would have held any fall.
Gear placement and identification skills certainly played the pivotal role in this accident. No fault can be attributed to the Aliens whatsoever, it was all down to operator error. Climber did have at her disposal the hexes that would have been able to be used in the placements that would have been bomber. I cannot comment on what she may have been thinking at the time that she did not use those hexes.
Aliens and in fact any gear is only as good as the climbers experience.
Fortunately the climber involved in this 20 metre brush with death is expected to make a nearly 100 percent recovery.
...Phil...
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froggy
Apr 28, 2003, 10:21 PM
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There look to be a ton of oportunities for perfect placements on this route.. Use the right sized gear or the right gear and you should not have any problem on this route :D
User Error for sure!
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sheldonjr
Apr 29, 2003, 4:16 AM
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That's the worst looking cam placement I have ever seen. I wouldn't even aid on that in a pinch. UUUGGLLY!
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diplodocus
Apr 29, 2003, 4:25 AM
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thanks for the good input Phil. Thank God that she is recovering well
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straightedgeteen
May 6, 2003, 12:45 AM
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In reply to: The following site shows a real case of Aliens failing when improperly placed.
ALot of cams will pop and fail if they are "improperly placed". Cause if you dont place them properly then they are going to fail
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atg200
May 6, 2003, 4:35 PM
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In reply to: ALot of cams will pop and fail if they are "improperly placed". Cause if you dont place them properly then they are going to fail
wow, really? so thats what i've been doing wrong all these years!
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kevlar
May 6, 2003, 5:08 PM
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we all hope for a full a speedy recovery for a fellow climber...
please take the time to teach her about proper location an placement...
consider toproping for awhile
:D
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kevlar
May 6, 2003, 5:10 PM
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atg....it appears you have done a good job of ? cam placement...as you are able to respond to the thread?
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aarong
May 6, 2003, 5:26 PM
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I use Aliens and really find them to be some of the best small cams around. I agree that this accident could have happened with any type of cam.
Small cams should be placed closer to fully-cammed (1/2-3/4 cammed) than under-cammed (<1/2). Under-cammed units have a higher probability of walking. In other words - it should be a tight fit when placing a small cam - that's not to say that you should over-cam a unit because then you'll never be able to retrieve it. But if you are in a tight spot - it's better to get something stuck because you over-cammed it than to hit the deck because the cams tipped-out and it pulled.
I'm sorry to hear about the accident - hope she recovers fully.
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mreardon
May 6, 2003, 11:05 PM
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Improperly placed and chose to move above it hoping either to not fall, or that it would miraculously hold. It didn't. No surprise. I hope she gets better and learned the lesson. If you are not willing to fall on it, then don't bother placing it.
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zen_n_az
May 9, 2003, 12:02 AM
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a camalot would have to be to the extreme tips for it to fail, bit not in that placement, unless the person placing it didn't have a clue
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