|
beyond_gravity
May 5, 2002, 5:42 PM
Post #26 of 54
(4112 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 2, 2002
Posts: 5078
|
If there was a cam jammed in a crack with a tag on it, i'd definitly take the cam!
I was talking to a guy at the gym about this and he said once he went to Heart Creek (in Canada) and every single route had a tag on it Of course, these routes have been set up for 10 years +, someone just put tags on all the first bolts.
On another note, i've seen a route tagged that was just a Piton line. This is the stupidist thing i've seen so far. It was a micro crack that you couldnt stick ur fingures in, so you had to use the face, making it a "sport climb" anyways, I was at the crag again 2 weeks later and the pitons had been funked out, leaving only pin scars!
|
|
|
|
|
iclimbtoo
May 5, 2002, 7:04 PM
Post #27 of 54
(4112 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 10, 2002
Posts: 645
|
You know, we just need more of us trad climbers out there!
|
|
|
|
|
beyond_gravity
May 5, 2002, 8:44 PM
Post #28 of 54
(4112 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 2, 2002
Posts: 5078
|
I remember back in my day, We didn't have fancy Spring Loaded Camming Devices, or manufactured nuts and hexs. We simply got some nylon webbing, walked along the ol'rail road track, or possibly the nabourhood automobile shop. When we walked along we scaned the ground and picked up differnt sizes of nuts and bolts that we strung with webbing, that was REAL protection, eh?
Now all you yougin' are paying $50-120 for a single camming device. I remember the old Stanly Martin climbing shop, well, it was more of a safty equpiment shop, but back then that was the closist thing there was to a climbing shop. I remember my first hemp rope. They just dont make ropes how they used to. I tryed smoking a nylon rope and it does not work so well. That reminds me of the time I went climbing on...uh, I cant quite remember then name...Oh Yes, do you remember the old Jack Wolfskin ice cream store? I remember the movie theater across from it. We could see a doubble feature, cartoon, pop and bag of pop corn for a nickle. But nickles these days are not the same as the used to be. They used to be pure nickle, now there a cheap 98-2 nickle alloy. Me and Rodney Mullen used to melt them down and sell the nickle for more then it's worth!
|
|
|
|
|
calamity_chk
May 5, 2002, 11:35 PM
Post #29 of 54
(4112 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 23, 2002
Posts: 7994
|
( wow, that was random and bitter ... bread's not a nickel anymore, either .. move on)
... a quick thank you to those who contributed to the knowledge base, though .. i certainly have a greater respect for those shiny little hangers now.
[ This Message was edited by: clymbr_chk on 2002-05-05 16:36 ]
|
|
|
|
|
joemor
May 6, 2002, 4:10 AM
Post #30 of 54
(4112 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 3, 2001
Posts: 609
|
beyond..... i think youve finally lost what ever it was that u had.
joe
|
|
|
|
|
paintinhaler
May 15, 2002, 11:13 PM
Post #31 of 54
(4112 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 12, 2000
Posts: 715
|
Rodney Mullen, the skateboarder?
|
|
|
|
|
ryanguy
May 16, 2002, 12:45 AM
Post #32 of 54
(4112 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 6, 2001
Posts: 40
|
I've been reading all your input and there is some great info and realistic descriptions on how much effort it takes to set a route. I've set many routes in my local crags and I usually just keep them secret until I am finished working all the routes so red tagging doesn't usually come in to play.
On another note I have a question for all of you. What if you have a local climber who runs around to all the potential areas and places a couple of bolts at the top of MOST EVERY POTENTIAL ROOUTE and doesn't get around to cleaning or lead bolting the routes for a year or two??? For most people who don't set routes I guess it doesn't matter but for us route setters it is a crime. I could have finished the majority of these lines by now if they weren't "claimed". So in light of this would you respect all the "claims" and stay off the routes or just go ahead and complete them, after all the "claimer" has put almost no effort into the route up to this point???
(In most circumstances you would approach the guy and ask permission to do the routes but in this case he is less than reasonable.)
LET ME KNOW YOUR OPINION.
|
|
|
|
|
roughster
May 16, 2002, 3:12 AM
Post #33 of 54
(4112 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 3, 2002
Posts: 4003
|
"On another note I have a question for all of you. What if you have a local climber who runs around to all the potential areas and places a couple of bolts at the top of MOST EVERY POTENTIAL ROOUTE and doesn't get around to cleaning or lead bolting the routes for a
year or two???"
I would say approach him and discuss it. My guess is he will be receptive to you bolting the lines. If he has a few "must have projects" let them be, but tell him that you plan on developing a line at a time and that letting a climb sit with anchors for multi months/years is really not in the best interest of local climbers or the area.
Most developers love it when others pitch in with work, $$, effort to help develop a crag (at least I do) as long as they do a good job.
Offer maybe to bolt a few of the lines with him so he gets a feel for your "style". Will probably go a long ways on helping you come to an agreeable ending.
|
|
|
|
|
johnhenry
May 16, 2002, 6:26 AM
Post #34 of 54
(4112 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 28, 2002
Posts: 202
|
I really appreciate all these humerous anecdotes that have really brightened my day!!!
The thought of a "Rap bolting" epic really puts into prespective the beautiful variety of our community here a rc.com.
I have put up 15 routes from the ground up(after cleaning) in New Mexico, West Virginia, and Hawaii, let me tell you, I don't own them or the insitu-gear I left behind on them.
I think red tags are the biggest joke in the climbing world. I wish I was a 5.13 climber so that I could flash every one I saw. As far as the law is concerned, possession is 9/10ths. Once you sink that Rawl bolt into public rock, it ain't yours anymore.
As for the so-called sacrifices of the would-be first ascensionist i.e. cleaning, gardening, etc., I have never found this to be anything but a real joy. A "Labor of Love" if there ever was one. I personally would not begin a project until I was sure I could see it through.
I can appreciate our diversity though so,
Rock On,
John
[ This Message was edited by: johnhenry on 2002-05-15 23:29 ]
|
|
|
|
|
roughster
May 16, 2002, 10:51 AM
Post #35 of 54
(4112 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 3, 2002
Posts: 4003
|
" I think red tags are the biggest joke in the climbing world. I wish I was a 5.13 climber so that I could flash every one I saw. As far as the law is concerned, possession is 9/10ths. Once you sink that Rawl bolt into public rock, it ain't yours anymore."
Imagine this: You spend 3 hours working/cleaning/establishing a climb, then finally get to the top and lower/rap off.
Before you can pull your rope and untie, someone else comes over, ropes up, and stands poised to grab the true FA. As you untie and pull your rope, Joe Blows sends the route and names it, "Johnhenry is a goat".
You expect me to believe that this would be "kosher" with you?
Sure it would be
Now if it was a trad line with maybe a bolt or 2 or few pieces of fixed gear, maybe I could see it, but if your talking about a sport climb, I'm sorry I just don't believe it.
|
|
|
|
|
traddad
May 16, 2002, 2:14 PM
Post #36 of 54
(4112 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 14, 2001
Posts: 7129
|
Respect goes both ways. Respect for the work it takes to put up a sport route and respect for the climbing community. The author should set limits on him/herself as to how long they will work the route before they open it up to the community. I've seen red tags on routes for years. If it's too hard for you, admit it and move on. Also, guidebooks need to give the author credit for putting up the climb even if they didn't FA it. I've seen some that don't.
Traddad
|
|
|
|
|
beyond_gravity
May 16, 2002, 2:43 PM
Post #37 of 54
(4112 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 2, 2002
Posts: 5078
|
Oh No! Maybe...er..the French/b> have a better way then us! I hear that they give all credit to the route setter, not the FA. and the route is named by the Route Setter.
|
|
|
|
|
treyr
May 16, 2002, 4:48 PM
Post #38 of 54
(4112 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 23, 2001
Posts: 549
|
I agree with beyondgravity
Trob
|
|
|
|
|
traddad
May 16, 2002, 5:38 PM
Post #39 of 54
(4112 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 14, 2001
Posts: 7129
|
Now, (finger wagging) did I say ALL of the credit? I think not. Of course the FA gets the lion's share of the credit. This IS, after all, a sport called CLIMBING not ROUTE SETTING!
Traddad
|
|
|
|
|
couloir
May 17, 2002, 1:01 PM
Post #40 of 54
(4112 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 4, 2001
Posts: 304
|
The person who equipped the route should have a few chances to get the redpoint before other people go at it. Unless they are valid under the "Todd Skinner Clause"!
|
|
|
|
|
beyond_gravity
May 22, 2003, 2:52 AM
Post #41 of 54
(4112 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 2, 2002
Posts: 5078
|
Jes' le pomme
|
|
|
|
|
orangekyak
May 22, 2003, 3:23 AM
Post #42 of 54
(4112 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 30, 2002
Posts: 1832
|
In reply to: What if you trad someones bolt project
then it shouldn't have been bolted. proceed as local ethics dictate.
|
|
|
|
|
allanange
May 22, 2003, 4:24 AM
Post #43 of 54
(4112 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 6, 2003
Posts: 29
|
What if discover a cool class VI whitewater run that has not been done before can I redtag it?
What if spend my time cutting a mountain biking trail on public land can I redtag it until I ride it first?
Public land belongs to the tax payers you can not dictate what someone else will do on that land.
You may own the bolts up until the point you place them in the rock after which they become public domain.
I remember once I belayed my friend on an FA. He led the entire thing ground up hand drilling the bolts from hooks.When he finished drilling he gave me first shot at the route. Now that is Ethics.
A.
|
|
|
|
|
caughtinside
May 22, 2003, 5:23 AM
Post #44 of 54
(4112 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 8, 2003
Posts: 30603
|
If you want to be a jerk about it and not respect time, money and EFFORT put in by someone else, you might find that there are fewer routes going up, and that what is going up you are not going to be told about.
Climb something without a tag
|
|
|
|
|
timstich
May 22, 2003, 5:27 AM
Post #45 of 54
(4112 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 3, 2003
Posts: 6267
|
My take on this subject is this. If the route has a red tag, make a note of when you saw it. In a few weeks, start asking around who put the tag up. Are they still finishing up the cleaning? Is the work all done? Did the route setter move to f-ing Bishop? What's the deal? So you find out that all the gear's in and the route is ready. Two months go by. No one has heard of the routesetter and he/she can't be found.
So send it already.
At a crag on the Pecos that I set a few routes in we had several red tags. Some of the route setters plain just lost interest we decided, so someone else finished the bolting and did the lead FA. The route bears the original setter's name and we don't care about chronicling the lead FAs anyway. It's who did most of the work that matters. Who sussed out the line and did the sweating is the one in the guide book.
Now if the route setter can't lead their own routes...that's a different story!
|
|
|
|
|
climbsomething
May 22, 2003, 6:29 AM
Post #46 of 54
(4112 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 30, 2002
Posts: 8588
|
Maybe I missed it before timstich's post, but one thing people seem to be overlooking is that a red tag is up cos the route hasn't been completely bolted and/or cleaned yet. Red often signifies danger (peligro... achtung...) so maybe it's more of a safety issue than an ego one to stay off red-tagged routes.
|
|
|
|
|
bluelip
May 22, 2003, 7:33 AM
Post #47 of 54
(4112 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 23, 2003
Posts: 102
|
In reply to: Public land belongs to the tax payers you can not dictate what someone else will do on that land. A.
Yes, you don't own the rock, you no longer own the gear, and heck you probably can't even claim the tag as being yours any longer.
The tag is there to ASK other climbers (out of respect) to hold off climbing the route until you've finished it. If someone is spending time on there, let them finish. Thre are plenty of other climbs for you to tinker with.
Mike Coles
'bluelip'
|
|
|
|
|
sierramike
May 23, 2003, 5:17 AM
Post #48 of 54
(4112 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 4, 2002
Posts: 158
|
For those of you who insist that red tags are lame: like Roughster implies---go out and work your ass off putting up a QUALITY route that you had the vision, motivation, and fortitude to suffer through the work of cleaning, preparing, choosing the right spot for bolts, etc. After that just hand it over to someone else to garner the rewards of a first ascent. I dare ya. But...if you still insist that red tags are wrong (and everything they imply), then by all means climb the route, ONLY hang on at least one bolt. That way you satisfy yourself by climbing the route and the route setter/first ascentionist as you cannot claim a true first ascent (as you hung) and the route setter can reap his/her JUST REWARDS. We all like to spew how much we respect the each other and our efforts, the rock, nature, etc., well, time to step up and show it. At least have the common courtesy to ask the route setter if it's cool if you get on their route. Yes, I said "their" route because basically it is. It would not be there if it weren't for their hard work and vision. Respect it.
|
|
|
|
|
bouldertoad
May 27, 2003, 4:48 AM
Post #49 of 54
(4112 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 26, 2002
Posts: 352
|
What good is a first ascent if you are the only one trying it???
|
|
|
|
|
alpnclmbr1
May 27, 2003, 5:20 AM
Post #50 of 54
(4112 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 10, 2002
Posts: 3060
|
I can't believe how many of you object to red tags. It's funny how the people who steal FA's almost never do the work involved in establishing routes.
if you just have to climb a line with a red tag then just touch the first bolt and technically invalidate your send.
One other point, don't go breaking off holds on an unfinished route.
some people will bolt up an entire crag(80 bolts over two weekends) and then slowly clean and point the routes over a couple of years sometimes.
Anybody that claims a FA on a stolen send is going to get a lot of bad karma and people remember that kind of bull.
|
|
|
|
|
|
