|
dymondbak37
Jun 3, 2003, 2:46 AM
Post #1 of 24
(2853 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 29, 2002
Posts: 212
|
Ok, call me insane, but I was just looking through some sites, and I saw, "daisy chain for storing gear". Now, I think I'm wrong, but, is that all their used for? I use them for anchors n such. I really hope they're for both. Any witty comments are welcome.
|
|
|
|
|
wachy
Jun 3, 2003, 2:52 AM
Post #2 of 24
(2853 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 10, 2001
Posts: 61
|
they're totally ok for anchoring. They're great for when you want to take down anchors off sport routes too.
|
|
|
|
|
philbox
Moderator
Jun 3, 2003, 2:52 AM
Post #3 of 24
(2853 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 27, 2002
Posts: 13105
|
Yeah well I have some daiseys for storing gear. I wouldn`t use them for anything else as they would be too flimsy. They are great for keeping my cams all ordered, I clip two cams in each loop. Very nice for just seeing that everything is there and grabbing it and then chucking the whole lot in your pack. I throw the daisy around my neck and can then do an easy gear sort. The daisey is made thus, take one 600mm sling and sew daisey loops around 3/4 of the outside of that loop. In this case the sling is quite a weak sling that should be used only for storing gear and no life loads.
...Phil...
|
|
|
|
|
dymondbak37
Jun 3, 2003, 3:33 AM
Post #4 of 24
(2853 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 29, 2002
Posts: 212
|
Ok? 2 people say 2 different things. Anyone else?
|
|
|
|
|
thedesertnomad
Jun 3, 2003, 3:39 AM
Post #5 of 24
(2853 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 23, 2003
Posts: 216
|
The ones that are made for it (like used in aiding) are fine for loads, the second guy was just hand making some because (and I agree, they are great for organizing) especially on a wall. Great simple way to make them flimsey, but I will just go on buying the ones that I can hang off of (wouldn't want to confuse a real one for a handmade screamer)
|
|
|
|
|
karlbaba
Jun 3, 2003, 3:44 AM
Post #6 of 24
(2853 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 10, 2002
Posts: 1159
|
When you saw "daisy chain for storing gear", they probably meant loops sewn in webbing on the back (or inside) of a pack. It's mainly a handy place to clip things.
This is different than the daisy chains that are an intregral part of aid climbing or handy at belays for trad climbers
Peace
karl
|
|
|
|
|
ptone
Jun 3, 2003, 3:59 AM
Post #7 of 24
(2853 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 5, 2003
Posts: 350
|
Loads--yeah, that's what I use them for.
You kin backdoor 12 gauge shells in em for if ya git one a them sheep nosin about yer bivy up in Canada there eh?
They hold in real nice (only had two fall once, on this huge whipper down south eh...coulda decked cuz my gddamn belayer about dropped me when they hit the rocks and went off by his head...friggin pansy ass!!!)
Got this contraption almost perfect now tho, just lay two shells sideon in a daisy loop and string a rubber band between em, keeps em from dropping out like that if you git inverted on a fall!
Shotgun was harder til I sawed it down and--
Oh waity here a sec..hunh, me an expert and all, about ta give some advice over the website that could get a feller killed an all...
Boy is my face red!
-p
If you try anything I tell you to do, you're probably even more foolish than I, but its OK I suppose, there's enough of us fools running around already anyhow...more food for the kids too!
|
|
|
|
|
thedesertnomad
Jun 3, 2003, 4:07 AM
Post #8 of 24
(2853 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 23, 2003
Posts: 216
|
No Ptone... you must have misunderstood me... I didn't mean "loads" like shotgun shells... I meant when I am climbing and have to take a crap, I pack em out that way, strung behind me til the harden. Wouldn't want to drop a turd on some poor climber below me. :twisted:
|
|
|
|
|
ptone
Jun 3, 2003, 4:22 AM
Post #9 of 24
(2853 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 5, 2003
Posts: 350
|
'Specially not your belayer :shock:
|
|
|
|
|
mugnyte
Jun 3, 2003, 4:56 PM
Post #10 of 24
(2853 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 8, 2002
Posts: 78
|
Although holding gear in a daisy chain is probably very nice, I haven't tried that. I use the typical padded sling. My daisy was, for years, a woven piece of 1" webbing with tape knots in the ends (and a few inches of tail tucked in past those knots!). This made a nice bouncy daisy for hanging belays, and I was able to clip anywhere in the length.
These days, a thin presewn daisy is prusiked to the front of my harness, and I keep a twistlock HMS on a harness gearloop round the back clipped to the daisy center or so. For the most part, it stays tucked into a pocket. Whenever cleaning an anchor, hanging on a belay, or aiding, that thing comes out and its very easy and light. It's good to adjust the height of your belay seating, especially if the perch is going to get crowded.
So yes, I use it for weighting all the time. Combined with roped cloves to the anchors, its my usual setup on hanging belays. In essence, it is a presewn 1/4" runner with stitches tacked to form open loops. Even if the tacked loops were to rip out (under some big kN mind you), the closed loop style (and multiple tacked areas) would prevent anything drastic, IMO.
jim
|
|
|
|
|
topramen
Jun 3, 2003, 5:08 PM
Post #11 of 24
(2853 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 21, 2002
Posts: 89
|
If when you mean anchoring , you are referring to clipping in to some bolts or gear with a diasy chain and then building a bombproof anchor which you then transfer to, this is fine. Never use a daisy chain as your sole means of anchoring and then belaying from. Though I see it used on occasion this is a disaster waiting to happen. Diasy chains are meant to hold body weight only !!!! A severe lead fall onto the the belay station could be real bad.
|
|
|
|
|
mugnyte
Jun 3, 2003, 5:45 PM
Post #12 of 24
(2853 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 8, 2002
Posts: 78
|
In reply to: Diasy chains are meant to hold body weight only !!!! .
This surprises me, since its is simply a tack-sewn runner. I understand clipping just over a loop sewn area is poor choice, there really is no loss of strength as compared to a 3 or 4 ft runner of the same materal. Am I misunderstanding something about them?
|
|
|
|
|
tradclimber2
Jun 3, 2003, 5:48 PM
Post #13 of 24
(2853 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 9, 2001
Posts: 132
|
I use a daisy chain for clipping in to the top of sport routes to set TR anchors, set up a rappel, etc. I also use one for my backup at multipitch anchors (trad or sport) - I always tie in with the rope as my main anchor point. Just my way, as 'commercial' daisy chain (metolius, BD, etc.) stitching is quite strong enough for body weight, unless one weighs more than 400 lbs., that is.
One major point that has not been mentioned yet - there is a right and wrong way to clip into a daisy chain. The right way works, the wrong way can make you dead. Be sure to NOT clip into two adjacent loops (ie. where the stitching is) - if the stitching blows, you are no longer into the daisy....OOPSY!
ALSO, if one clips into a daisy at two or more different loops, there is a BIG potential that IF all the stitching blows (as in a weighted fall, thus reducing your daisy chain to a full strength sling), the 'biner will end up coming out as in the case of clipping two adjacent loops. This may sound confusing, but try it. And try it multiple times to be sure your daisy will not do this. Best way to prevent this from happening is to clip ONLY ONE loop of the daisy to your anchor (most people do not do this, they clip the end loop and one other to adjust the length of the daisy, not good). One other way is to tie an overhand knot in the last loop of the daisy (where your 'biner is clipped into) - this will act as a 'stop' if the stitching does fail, as in a weighted fall.
Sorry if this sounds confusing......
Ben
|
|
|
|
|
fritzski
Jun 3, 2003, 6:12 PM
Post #14 of 24
(2853 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 4, 2002
Posts: 122
|
I find the daisy a very convenient tool to use when cleaning the anchor on a sport route. Our anchors are very conventional, generally just two draws hung from two cold shuts or bolts.
This is my system: I have one end girth hitched to my belay loop. Once at the anchor, I take the other end and also attach it to the belay loop with a locking biner. I now have a "daisy loop" extending from my harness. I then take an appropriate length from either side of the loop and hook it to the TOP biner on each draw being careful to leave the section of the loop between the two biners loose so as to avoid the Death Triangle syndrome. This leaves the bottom of the draws clear to clean and when the rope has finally been rethreaded thru the basic anchors for lower or rap, I just disconnect the same two top biners and throw the whole loop with draws still attached up around my neck and I'm outta there.
As far as I can analyze it, this system gives you two basically independent strands if one anchor or one side of the loop should fail while hanging.
|
|
|
|
|
tt
Jun 4, 2003, 2:20 AM
Post #15 of 24
(2853 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 6, 2003
Posts: 58
|
Ben,
Most people I know girth hitch the daisy to the belay loop at one end and clip one loop to the anchor. At least this is common sport-climbing practice. I see what you mean about clipping two loops and the stitching blows leaving you attached to nothing!!!
|
|
|
|
|
tradclimber2
Jun 4, 2003, 5:45 AM
Post #16 of 24
(2853 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 9, 2001
Posts: 132
|
tt,
That is my practice also. My daisy chain stays girth hitched to my harness all the time.
From teaching, I find that a lot of people who use daisy chains do not know the limitations - ie. clipping adjacent loops AND clipping more than one loop in the chain. IF one is not careful and doesn't keep the chain straight, you can actually clip two non-adjacent loops (one usually being the end loop) in a manner that, if the stitching fails as in a fall, they will act as if you clipped two adjacent loops. Try it! If is does not 'work' the first time, keep trying, and twist the daisy chain a half turn. You will eventually find yourself hanging in mid-air. Scary but true. Best way to remedy this is to tie an overhand knot in the last loop and clip the 'biner into the smaller loop created by the overhand knot
Ben
|
|
|
|
|
kevlar
Jun 4, 2003, 7:52 AM
Post #17 of 24
(2853 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 5, 2002
Posts: 272
|
Good call tradclimber...on the part about not clipping adjacent loops
|
|
|
|
|
karlbaba
Jun 4, 2003, 1:49 PM
Post #18 of 24
(2853 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 10, 2002
Posts: 1159
|
It is unsafe to clip ANY two loops on a sewn daisy chain when in an anchoring situation. The loops rips out at loads between 500-750 lbs and ripping them all in a leader fall situation is not extreme. Being clipped into the final loop will not help you, except by chance. Use logic to figure out what happens when they all rip.
Alternative: Just clip one loop when anchoring even if it's a middle loop. If the loops start to rip, the end will save you and the ripping will actually absorb a lot of energy for you.
Or
Clip the end loop into the anchor with one biner and shorten the length by clipping other loops together with another biner. (it won't matter if that one rips)
Or, clove hitch the end of the daisy onto a locking biner, then it doesn't matter where else you clip.
Or, use a homemade daisy with knotted loops, You can do whatever you want with full strength loops.
Regarding the original question, the answer is going to depend on specifically what piece of gear you are referring to. What was the item in the catalog and who makes it?
Peace
Karl
|
|
|
|
|
valygrl
Jun 4, 2003, 2:19 PM
Post #19 of 24
(2853 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 8, 2002
Posts: 247
|
Wow, Ben & Karl, thanks for posting this info, I had no idea....
Anna
|
|
|
|
|
ncclimber
Jun 5, 2003, 3:22 AM
Post #20 of 24
(2853 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 5, 2003
Posts: 104
|
Body weight only daisies are not made for falls. I blew the bar tack in a daisywith a static fall the length of the daisy onto a bolt. i just don't feel comfortable with them as a pimary anchor, like many trad climbers like to do.
|
|
|
|
|
karlbaba
Jun 5, 2003, 3:41 AM
Post #21 of 24
(2853 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 10, 2002
Posts: 1159
|
Daisies are fine for anchors as long as you don't clip them twice with the same biner. The webbing is good for many thousands of pounds, it's just the bar tacks that are dicey.
Peace
karl
|
|
|
|
|
tradclimber2
Jun 6, 2003, 5:27 AM
Post #22 of 24
(2853 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 9, 2001
Posts: 132
|
In reply to: Body weight only daisies are not made for falls. I blew the bar tack in a daisywith a static fall the length of the daisy onto a bolt. i just don't feel comfortable with them as a pimary anchor, like many trad climbers like to do.
Speaking for myself and quite a few of my fellow trad climber friends, I use the daisy as my BACKUP, not primary anchor point. 99% of the time I use the rope for my primary anchor point, and then backup with the daisychain, clipped in properly. The other nice thing about daisy chains at the anchor is you can use them to clip shoes, gear, etc. while you are hanging out.
|
|
|
|
|
alpinestylist
Jun 6, 2003, 1:13 PM
Post #23 of 24
(2853 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 22, 2002
Posts: 193
|
what TC2 just said...
never as the primary anchorage, even clipping two of them into anchor I still use rope as primary anchorage.
adjustable daisies are much worse and should definetly be treated as body weight pieces...
if you were just using them to clean short, er, sport routes I wouldn't think the possibility for big loads (like catching a 100 footer) is as great.
|
|
|
|
|
ljthawk
Jun 6, 2003, 2:13 PM
Post #24 of 24
(2853 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 2, 2002
Posts: 245
|
In reply to: Or, clove hitch the end of the daisy onto a locking biner, then it doesn't matter where else you clip.
Great idea, I like it.
L.J.
|
|
|
|
|
|
