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dirtineye
Jul 31, 2003, 9:48 PM
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But have you ever seen the backup double fisherman's in your tie in knot come loose? I think most people have seen this at one time or another. The way the fisherman class knots stay intact is by one side opposing the other side, when this is the case the fishsermans does not loosen. Iintroducing the square in between the two halves of a fiserman might interfere with the normal way a fisherman stays tight, allowing the fisherman's to loosen and theh you are on a square knot, EEK!.
ANyway, if you are going to use a square knot, you've already given up the best feature of the EDK, why not just use the rewoven figure 8, AKA the flemish bend, which is a known bend, and MUCH stronger than the edk or square, and will not come untied or pull out, and is recommended by many rescue authorities, and if you want you can still back it up with double fisherman's.
One nice thing about using the rewoven figure 8 is that most people already know how to tie it, so you don;t have to learn another knot for rappeling, and there is no doubt as to it capsizing or rolling because as with most bends, the ropes exit the knot on opposite sides.
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renobdarb
Aug 8, 2003, 4:23 PM
Post #27 of 38
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In reply to: Has anyone mentioned the fatter rope should go thru the anchor so that when you pull the ropes you are pulling with the smaller rope? If you don't' do this and the ropes are very different is sizes your weigh on the rap can start the ropes to pull thru the anchor. Very dangerous.
A very good point here... not doing this can have serious consequences... putting the smaller rope through the anchors was one factor that lead to the fall and death of a female climber at Devils Tower in May. She was rappelling on a brand new 10mm rope and an older 11mm rope, and the diameter difference compounded with the fact that the new rope created less friction in the ATC caused the new rope to run through it slightly faster, thus making the ends uneven... there were also no knots in the end of her rope... just before she reached the anchors for the second rappel, she glanced down and saw a bunch of rope below her, but apparently neglected to see that there was only one rope (the thicker rope)... the other rope (the thin rope) only had about four inches left, and when she continued, she rappeled of the end and fell more than 300 feet...
it was not a single factor that caused this accident, but rather two or three factors... just a reminder to pay attention to detail...
-brad
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alpnclmbr1
Aug 8, 2003, 4:37 PM
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In reply to: She was rappelling on a brand new 10mm rope and an older 11mm rope, and the diameter difference compounded with the fact that the new rope created less friction in the ATC caused the new rope to run through it slightly faster, thus making the ends uneven... -brad
Just being picky on details: that scenario is not going to effect the rope length by more then a couple of inches.
Other then that I agree with your post completely.
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renobdarb
Aug 8, 2003, 4:46 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: She was rappelling on a brand new 10mm rope and an older 11mm rope, and the diameter difference compounded with the fact that the new rope created less friction in the ATC caused the new rope to run through it slightly faster, thus making the ends uneven... -brad Just being picky on details: that scenario is not going to effect the rope length by more then a couple of inches. Other then that I agree with your post completely.
well like i say, it was one factor that cost this girl her life... how much do those couple of inches mean to you?
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alpnclmbr1
Aug 8, 2003, 6:54 PM
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What I was saying it that what I quoted from you did not significantly contribute to the accident.
btw: Two sixty meter ropes, can differ in length by up to or more than 15 feet just by how they are cut at the factory.
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jt512
Aug 8, 2003, 7:39 PM
Post #31 of 38
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In reply to: In reply to: Has anyone mentioned the fatter rope should go thru the anchor so that when you pull the ropes you are pulling with the smaller rope? If you don't' do this and the ropes are very different is sizes your weigh on the rap can start the ropes to pull thru the anchor. Very dangerous. A very good point here... not doing this can have serious consequences... putting the smaller rope through the anchors was one factor that lead to the fall and death of a female climber at Devils Tower in May....
Note that if one rope is a static rope, then it is often better to put the static rope through the anchors even though it will probably be the thinner rope, so that the dynamic rope is the one being pulled. Then, if the ropes get stuck and you have to re-lead the pitch, you have a dynamic rope in hand to do so.
-Jay
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renobdarb
Aug 9, 2003, 9:43 PM
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In reply to: What I was saying it that what I quoted from you did not significantly contribute to the accident.
I find it laughable that a person who wasn't even there would assume this...
The accident report put together by the Devils Tower climbing ranger and others who evaluated the incident didn't say this was the factor that caused the accident, but one of a few factors...
That stated, I would say any factor that contributes to the death of a climber is "significant"...
If you want to bypass a very simple action that will make your climbing just a little safer, maybe the next accident report we read will be yours...
-brad
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alpnclmbr1
Aug 9, 2003, 11:51 PM
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I am saying that in my experience rapping on a 11ml and a "new shiny 10ml" is not going to cause the ropes to become uneven from how the ropes go through the rappel device. This hasn’t even been a significant problem when I was using an 8ml instead of a 10ml although it is possible in that situation, with a 10 and 11, I don’t think so.
In reply to: there were also no knots in the end of her rope... just before she reached the anchors for the second rappel, she glanced down and saw a bunch of rope below her, but apparently neglected to see that there was only one rope (the thicker rope)... the other rope (the thin rope) only had about four inches left, ....
How did you come up with this?
Your interpretation of this seems to be that the ropes became uneven to where she didn’t reach the next anchors.
The actual reports lead to a different conclusion
In reply to: Although the exact cause of the accident is not known, Park Service investigators said contributing factors included, "failing to immediately connect to the fixed anchors present, absence of back-up knots at the end of the rappel ropes, distracting conversation, or traveling ropes on a double rope."
http://www.msnbc.com/local/pnboz/Inquirysuggests.asp
they do mention "traveling ropes" but in light of the other factors it was not what caused the accident or significanly contributed to it.
To me this say’s she got to the anchors, became distracted and fell off the ledge she was standing on(and the end of the rope of course) before she clipped in.
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renobdarb
Aug 10, 2003, 1:19 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: there were also no knots in the end of her rope... just before she reached the anchors for the second rappel, she glanced down and saw a bunch of rope below her, but apparently neglected to see that there was only one rope (the thicker rope)... the other rope (the thin rope) only had about four inches left, .... How did you come up with this?
The information in my previous posts were a paraphrase of a conversation I had with the Devils Tower climbing ranger while we were standing at the unfortunate climber's landing spot at the base of the Tower this last Thursday. He did not witness the accident, but was climbing on a route adjacent to El Cracko Diablo and was first to reach the fallen climber...
I suppose it is debatable whether this factor can be called "significant", but that really wasn't my point...
My original post on this topic was to advise climbers using different diameter ropes on two-rope rappels to put the larger of the two ropes through the anchors... While the reason to do this may to some seem, dare i say "insignificant", there is really no reason not to (unless one rope is static, which Jay commented on earlier)... it is merely a way of eliminating a variable, and I think an easy, simple method of making a rappel a little safer can't be a bad thing...
-brad
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alpnclmbr1
Aug 10, 2003, 2:06 AM
Post #35 of 38
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In reply to: My original post on this topic was to advise climbers using different diameter ropes on two-rope rappels to put the larger of the two ropes through the anchors... While the reason to do this may to some seem, dare i say "insignificant", there is really no reason not to (unless one rope is static, which Jay commented on earlier)... it is merely a way of eliminating a variable, and I think an easy, simple method of making a rappel a little safer can't be a bad thing... -brad
For the most part I agree with this as a general rule.
There is one more reason not to though, one that applies to a 10ml and 11ml combo in particular.(anything less and I would stick with the rule due to a more significant difference in stretch) With a 10/11 combo, I would thread the rope through the anchors as I was pulling it. When you always want to have the thicker rope through the anchors, you have to pull the rope and then pull the end of the rope up(200ft) to thread the end through the anchors, then feed 200 feet of rope through the anchors. This takes a lot of time and it would not be worth it for me with a 10/11 combo. Time can also be a saftey issue.
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dirtineye
Aug 10, 2003, 4:22 AM
Post #36 of 38
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This threading through the anchors stuff seems slow for two ropes. What my buddy taught me was, untie the ropes, and retie through the anchors. Lower them together.
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janiszewski11
Aug 10, 2003, 4:34 AM
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duct tape or hot glue will work :D
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renobdarb
Aug 10, 2003, 6:58 AM
Post #38 of 38
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In reply to: For the most part I agree with this as a general rule. There is one more reason not to though, one that applies to a 10ml and 11ml combo in particular.(anything less and I would stick with the rule due to a more significant difference in stretch) With a 10/11 combo, I would thread the rope through the anchors as I was pulling it. When you always want to have the thicker rope through the anchors, you have to pull the rope and then pull the end of the rope up(200ft) to thread the end through the anchors, then feed 200 feet of rope through the anchors. This takes a lot of time and it would not be worth it for me with a 10/11 combo. Time can also be a saftey issue.
Huh?
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