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mnicholas77
Aug 28, 2003, 1:47 AM
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I'm actually a seasoned climber, but haven't climbed for the last two years cuz of the Navy. I never had a rope sit around long enough to worry about this, but do ropes have a shelf life?
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ronamick
Aug 28, 2003, 2:54 AM
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Only if they are subject to degradation from sunlight, chemical exposure, moisture, thermal stress etc, or physical damage from contact with sharp objects, dirt or particulate matter, or being under something heavy. In other words if it's been in a plastic bag on a dry shelf, like it should have been, you're ok. If the dog's been playing with it, or your little brother has used it to tow his truck, get a new cord.
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apollodorus
Aug 28, 2003, 4:05 AM
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Mammut tested some old ropes they found at their factory, and they broke on the first drop. I don't know how old they were, or if they had been exposed to chemicals, or what.
A couple of years in good storage isn't going to be much of a factor, though.
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vertx
Aug 28, 2003, 4:05 AM
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When in doubt ... throw it out!
Better to be safe than die of sudden decelleration syndrome. :shock:
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slcliffdiver
Aug 28, 2003, 4:11 AM
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For lead most of the rope manufactures say 5 years or less (check with the manufacturer for your rope it may make a difference). They don't nessicarly lose much strength but they loose the ability to absorb energy even if you store them nice and never use them.
For top-roping I'll let the debate rage.
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curt
Aug 28, 2003, 4:14 AM
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In reply to: When in doubt ... throw it out! Better to be safe than die of sudden decelleration syndrome. :shock:
vertx,
Since you are from Spokane I looked at your profile. Good to see you have done "romancing the stone" there. I did the FA of that route in 1987 so I hope you liked it.
However, Ron Amick is exactly right with regard to unused and properly stored ropes.
Curt
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xanx
Aug 28, 2003, 4:19 AM
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In reply to: They don't nessicarly lose much strength but they loose the ability to absorb energy even if you store them nice and never use them.
i think they actually lose their ability to recover from falls, so it should hold the first fall pretty much as normal, but then it won't stretch back to normal like it should so when u fall again it will be much less "dynamic". i think i read that in another post on a similar topic a while ago, try a search though i could be wrong.
how old is the rope anyway??
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cologman
Aug 28, 2003, 4:32 AM
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Hey, I have this old Gold Line that stands on end by itself when you can uncoil it. Do you suppose its any good? Trouble is I can't get it to thread through a belay device. :lol:
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curt
Aug 28, 2003, 4:50 AM
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In reply to: Hey, I have this old Gold Line that stands on end by itself when you can uncoil it. Do you suppose its any good? Trouble is I can't get it to thread through a belay device. :lol:
Never mind the belay device--with goldline you should be waist belaying anyway. The real question is whether or not you can tie a knot through your swami in it.
Curt
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cologman
Aug 28, 2003, 4:58 AM
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Hells Bells we didn't use no stinkin swami. Just a bowline on a coil and go. Make a good swing too! :lol:
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gramdel
Aug 28, 2003, 5:55 AM
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I'm not saying that you shouldn't retire your rope when in doubt, but there was some interesting articles about rope ageing and general durability of ropes in couple of UIAA journals.
http://journal.uiaa.ch/art.asp?id=245
http://journal.uiaa.ch/download/20003.pdf
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freakystyley
Aug 28, 2003, 2:31 PM
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You gotta look at the entire picture - old in years, how treated, how used, stepped on, etc.
I agree with the rope being a little better than we think (great articles btw) - BUT I retire ropes when in doubt. That said I do have a "10.6 top rope only" cord going on 5 yrs...not even showing fuzz - it sat in a ropebag for the better part of 3 yrs and now sees daylight 4x a month on topropes. I would trust my mom on this rope. another year and it will go in the "bad" pile just becasue of the time factor.
My personal belief is that lead falls (ie, 10' whipper) vs a top roped "fall" where the belay is sung up in your seat, and you may only sit back onto the rope - the lead falls work the rope harder and should be counted in the falls held. If I peel off 5'-10' above pro and my belayer can't TAKE and I end up dropping 5-10' below the pro - that is a considerable fall, especially with me weighing in at 225. a couple of those, and I have a new tie down/accessory/RUG/etc rope.
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the_pirate
Aug 28, 2003, 3:06 PM
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ok....
even under the best storage conditions.....nylon loses elasticity with age. not rapidly, but it does happen. A rope that has been stored well for 2 years i would have no problem leading on. a rope that has been stored well for 5 or 7 years< i might regulate to top roping. obviously a rope that sat in battery acid and direct sunlight for years is no good.
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hellclimber
Aug 28, 2003, 3:33 PM
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In reply to: ... dropping 5-10' below the pro - that is a considerable fall, especially with me weighing in at 225. a couple of those, and I have a new tie down/accessory/RUG/etc rope.
When we sport climb my rope takes falls all the time. A lot of them has been more than 20 feet. I plan on retiring my rope because of visible damage or age or a major fall (meaning more than fall factor one). Am I mad to think like this? Should I be counting every fall, noting it on a piece of paper and throw the rope based on that? I sure as hell can't afford to scrap the rope after a few 20' falls. Then I might as well start free soloing.
hellclimber
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freakystyley
Aug 28, 2003, 4:25 PM
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hellclimber -
I agree rope life is based on fall factors in addition to yrs old and visual inspection. As I said earlier, I have some old lines that SHOULD be retired, but $$ and known history of the cord tell me different - so I am on your side.
Type of rope, size, etc all play a factor in the life. a 9.6 std might not last(ie. falls) as long as a 10.6 dry, right?
BUT if you are falling 20+ feet - that may be considered a FallFactor 2 (based on placement of anchor/belayer/rope length/etc), and the UIAA uses 1.78 as std i think.
a dozen or so FF-2's "should" end up in my garage - but that may be overly cautious and unrealistic, as like you said, those could happen in a month!!.
ps, you didnt say how old your line was, if it is a couple years old and taking the falls you describe *I* would retire it even if it looked okay (I am also obsessive compulsive though!!
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hellclimber
Aug 28, 2003, 4:42 PM
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In reply to: hellclimber - ... ps, you didnt say how old your line was, if it is a couple years old and taking the falls you describe *I* would retire it even if it looked okay (I am also obsessive compulsive though!!
My line is less than 6 months old and will probably last me around 2 years unless something unexpected happens, depending on how much I get out on real rock. After a couple of years of wear I figure both age and damage will start giving me second thoughts about taking whippers on it. If I do take a factor 2 fall on it, then it is in my mind a reason for immediate retirement no matter the age of the rope (but I might reconsider this if it is a brand new and expensive line...). I'm not to fond of factor 1 or higher falls and will inspect the line very carefully if I take a few of those.
hellclimber
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drkayak
Aug 28, 2003, 4:43 PM
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I think the issue of old but never used ropes is interesting. I just bough a pair of Sterling "Marathon" 8.8mm doubles. From a online seller. When I received them the hang tags did not say Marathon. I called Sterling and they said The rope had to be several years old to not have the Marathon designation but it's the same rope.
I looked at the local gym and they have 8.8mm with and without the Marathon designation. So, some of their ropes have been hanging there for several years.
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hellclimber
Aug 28, 2003, 5:15 PM
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I'm not afraid of using old ropes for top roping. I would be very skeptical of using them for leading.
hellclimber
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scottharms
Aug 28, 2003, 5:44 PM
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mammut's site gives an unused rope a shelf life of 10yrs, check out their site for all the details on lifespans and usage.
Cheers.
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freakystyley
Aug 28, 2003, 7:10 PM
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Hellclimber -
- you do have a lot of use left in that sucker - (unless a block falls on it like that one poor guy here!)
We all know when to replace our ropes, - it is when you look at it and start asking these types of questions... will it...should i..., how long til...!! :wink:
- that is all i was saying. the ropes will last longer than we are led to believe from propaganda. Manufacturers have to print a CONSERVATIVE usage schedule to keep the nit-wits from digging out dad's old hemp rope and peeling off a 20 footer. Liability plain and simple. They are making gear for an inherently dangerous activity and need to put in writing safe guidelines (to CYA).
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curt
Aug 28, 2003, 7:16 PM
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In reply to: Manufacturers have to print a CONSERVATIVE usage schedule to keep the nit-wits from digging out dad's old hemp rope and peeling off a 20 footer. Liability plain and simple. They are making gear for an inherently dangerous activity and need to put in writing safe guidelines (to CYA).
Curt
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hellclimber
Aug 28, 2003, 7:25 PM
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In reply to: Not to mention the fact that selling you a new rope every 5 years sells twice as many ropes as selling you a new one every 10 years. The profit motive is at work here too. Curt
Very true. They do have a financial motive as well. But climbing on a 10 year old rope...? If it is unused maybe, and that is a big maybe, but climbing 2-3 times a week like I do that rope is going to start looking pretty sketchy after just a couple of years. If you're a gym rat you might be OK (not calling anyone a gym rat here!) but as soon as you start dragging that rope up slabby climbs it is going to take a lot of abuse. My biggest fear is loosing the dynamic attribute of the rope and as I understand it that happens no matter how lovingly you treat it. A hard fall on a rope that is getting pretty close to static is going to hurt and might snap the rope in half.
That said I fear indoor season is coming in just a month or two here in Norway and I will soon be one of the feared gym rats again. Sigh. Somebody say something consoling!
hellclimber
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curt
Aug 28, 2003, 7:31 PM
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In reply to: But climbing on a 10 year old rope...? If it is unused maybe, and that is a big maybe, but climbing 2-3 times a week like I do that rope is going to start looking pretty sketchy after just a couple of years. If you're a gym rat you might be OK (not calling anyone a gym rat here!) but as soon as you start dragging that rope up slabby climbs it is going to take a lot of abuse.
That being said, everyone needs to use their own best judgement. If you think anything is unsafe--don't use it.
Curt
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ronamick
Aug 29, 2003, 7:18 PM
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In reply to: Hey, I have this old Gold Line that stands on end by itself when you can uncoil it. Do you suppose its any good? Trouble is I can't get it to thread through a belay device. :lol:
Yeah, but they're great for doing the Hindu rope trick, eh?
I bought my #1 lead cord back in '93 (mammut), and I ain't dead yet!
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ronamick
Aug 29, 2003, 7:27 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: But climbing on a 10 year old rope...? If it is unused maybe, and that is a big maybe, but climbing 2-3 times a week like I do that rope is going to start looking pretty sketchy after just a couple of years. If you're a gym rat you might be OK (not calling anyone a gym rat here!) but as soon as you start dragging that rope up slabby climbs it is going to take a lot of abuse. Sure, but that's really my point. It is the wear the rope has taken that determines when it needs to be retired, not the age per-se. Everyone should really read that PDF file cited on the first page of this thread. It says that rope deterioration from age alone is so insignificant that it can basically be ignored. That being said, everyone needs to use their own best judgement. If you think anything is unsafe--don't use it. Curt
A word to the wise: get a good rope to use for leading, and take excellent care of it. Keep it in a sturdy, air tight bag, and only use it for leading your rads. Use the spare when you take your girlfriend up a 5.6, and never, ever use it for a TR. If you do a wall with it, get a new lead rope. Cut the retired ropes into smaller pieces and use them for short routes, hand lines and boulders without anchors on top, where you have to sling a bush 50' away and run a line over the top of the rock for the TR (be sure you have some fully functional directionals if you try this expert-trick).
By the time you're all haggard and worn out like me 'n Curt, you'll have a sturdy tow-rope in every vehicle, some nice dog leashes, plenty of tree-trimming lines, and some to spare!
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