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robmcc
Sep 24, 2003, 9:03 PM
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In reply to: Scouts... Here is the deal. I am a cope director and tower director. Those standard are writen by a group of volunteers who may or may not know what is going on.
And there ya go, kids. You may join the boy scouts, but NO WAY will I let you climb with them. You can go with me. And as we used to say back in the day...
"Look, Boy Scouts." "Yeah. Let's go climb on the other side so we don't have to participate in the rescue." :twisted:
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bandycoot
Sep 24, 2003, 10:00 PM
Post #27 of 45
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Can a dynamic rope handle 5000lbs of force? I'm amused at this whole thing... Soon they are going to require you to test it by lugging in 5000lbs and hanging it on the anchor...
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robmcc
Sep 24, 2003, 10:48 PM
Post #28 of 45
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According to some test data I saw on the web somewhere...believe it or not, yeah, it can. Just don't bounce. :) It won't hold much more than that, and if it's an old rope, it won't hold that much at all.
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hops_scout
Sep 24, 2003, 11:20 PM
Post #29 of 45
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You ever NOT complain about the Boy Scouts? I betcha there are several there who are just as good of climbers, if not better, who are out there with them!!
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fear
Sep 24, 2003, 11:40 PM
Post #30 of 45
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In reply to: Can a dynamic rope handle 5000lbs of force? I'm amused at this whole thing... Soon they are going to require you to test it by lugging in 5000lbs and hanging it on the anchor...
I doubt it. I use my old dynamic climbing ropes for 4 wheelin once I'm done with 'em. Now these are pretty beat up ropes so who knows. The dynamic lines break a lot under severe static loads like winching. I'd guess 3-4 thousand after the initial stretch, always at the knot. These are all 10-11mm PMI's, BW, and Mammuts. My old static lines fare much better. In fact I've never broken one through pulling alone. A 11mm+ static line is an amazing thing....
But it's all such a stupid moot point for climbing....
-Fear
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tallelk
Sep 25, 2003, 12:28 AM
Post #31 of 45
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I did not wish to cause problems and get people up into an uproar. I am a certified instructor by the Boy Scouts of America. I have been climbing for a long time, I have six children of my own and take them all with me when i go. I understand how to set up anchors, equalize them and make sure they are redundant. I know the drills. The original question was what can be used to acquire the five thousand pound breaking strength. This was all I wanted to know. I do not wish to know about everyones problems with the scouts. I just want to know what I could use other than Two inch webbing or Titan cord. Thank you for the replies that I have recieved.
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hops_scout
Sep 25, 2003, 1:09 AM
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tallelk,
I'm with you on this. I'm a Star Scout from Illinois. I know a lady from Missouri who is a rock climber, but mainly with scouts. She is an instructor. I hope to get more into this climbing thing:). So far, almost all of my climbing experience has come from Boy Scouts.
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mtnrsq
Sep 25, 2003, 3:36 PM
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Hey tallelk - sorry for my rant. I get frustrated by some of the efforts that are made to protect us from ourselves by people who frankly, don't know what they are doing. The fact that you can't use a wrap/pull set-up.....oh, well.
To actually answer your question - you might try getting some 11mm (7/16 inch) or 9mm (3/8) static line (BW, NewEngland KMIII, pick your brand). It will be relatively inexpensive, easy to knot, meet your MBS requirements, give you a stable (i.e., no stretching of significance when loaded) virtual anchor point, etc. If you need a separate rescue-rated line you can get a 13mm (1/2) section for that purpose that is UL/NFPA/etc. approved for 2-person loads.
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jimdavis
Sep 25, 2003, 6:04 PM
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Why are you guy's packing rescue lines in? I really don't see the point. You can get 2 people on a dynamic rope no problem. It's called a counter-ballanced ascension. It's used for leader pick-off's.
Remember the physics here. The force of two people is put on a rope when ever you have a belayer and a climber on it. A counter-ballanced rescue should take care of pretty much anything you should be worried about.
Other that than, call a rescue team! The boy scouts are not a trained SAR organization capable of performing advanced technical rescues. That's why there are Technical Rescue Teams. We train for stuff like this, we have the resourses to deal with these situations, and the skill to carry them out safely.
If you needed to rescue them on the cliffs, then your gonna have to evac them, and by calling in help, you'll have the rescue service coordinate the evac. That way you can get them out faster, and most likely have more knowledgable people treating the patient.
There's no shame in calling in a needed rescue. It's usually the wise thing to do.
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apollodorus
Sep 25, 2003, 7:54 PM
Post #35 of 45
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In reply to: Okay. These sound like SAR specs.
Exactly. Cams and other pieces are not going to meet the 5000 lb. specification.
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hops_scout
Sep 25, 2003, 8:18 PM
Post #36 of 45
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I think one reason they bring in the rescue lines too is so that in the case of needing them, one of the reasons might be with the rope itself and not being able to be used... just a guess;)
Some of units in the Boy Scouts are highly trained in SAR and/or have guides with them so they may be able to complete rescues if needed.
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urban_rocker
Sep 27, 2003, 11:03 AM
Post #37 of 45
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Hey,
I will direct you to a few things about UK scout climbing rules.
http://www.scoutbase.org.uk/activity/outdoor/climb/rules.htm
These are direct rules that must be obeyed at all times, if some of the stuff seems a bit simple then it is because it is the "Scout Rules Made Simple", but clearly states that;
"All rock climbing and abseiling activities must be led or supervised by a person authorised by the District Commissioner."
(The District Commissioner is a person that over seas Scouting in a an area of a few large towns or similar)
These rules are followed to every word and letter.
http://www.scoutbase.org.uk/library/hqdocs/facts/pdfs/fs120402.pdf
That is a fact sheet that details the authorization system and the rigours of the process.
In the UK the basic MINIUM is SPA (Single Pitch Award... details here; http://www.javu.co.uk/Climbing/Courses/SPA.shtml It allows you to take people single pitch climbing and no more.)
I will also direct you to POR (Policy Organisation and Rules)
http://www.scoutbase.org.uk/library/hqdocs/por/pages/index.htm
This is a set of rules designed to prevent accidents and in it there is clear guidelines to want you can and can't do, Scouting is not run by a bunch of cowboys looking to kill little kids, but a group of mature adults that aims to give kids a chance to experience something unique. Scouting is the one of the world largest movements and the largest for children, they run events larger than the Olympics and all out of the kindness of their heart, and if you think it is run by a bunch of kiddie fiddlers they have introduce CRB (criminal records buro) checks to prevent that kind of sickening thing.
Rob aka Urban Rocker
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oldrkr
Sep 27, 2003, 3:35 PM
Post #38 of 45
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Hi Tall Elk, fellow BSA climbing instructor here. Interesting new requirements, heh? Just had two leaders taking Instructor Cert. Course on 9/12-14 and they say nothing mentioned about new 5,000 lb requirements for 2004, makes you wonder if all Councils are on the same page. Anyway 5,000 although way overkill in my opinion, is doable easy enough, just hard on the budget if you just bought new gear like we recently did based on the “current” requirements.
2” webbing or 11mm static line will cover your 5,000 per individual piece, use biners rated 23kn or better, you have to use two by regs. But this way each rated 5,000 or better. The 2” webbing is a pain to knot, I prefer the static line for workability. As far as your rescue rope goes. If you plan on having two on the rope there are several out there rated 10,000 or better. New England and Sterling Ropes both offer a ½” or 12.7mm static line rated 10,000 or better, probably others as well. I guess now I have to chase down my Council Climbing Director and find out what’s up for next year as he seems to be behind the curve on this one.
Now, for those of you ranting on the BSA (note I understand that not all of the rants are unjustified), understand that most of their recent “safety” decisions have all been driven by insurance demands. As they are a “self insured” organization, some of the recent litigations have been quite costly. They are scrambling to lower their potential exposure in all high adventure programs. Unfortunately, most of these incidents are caused by a few “loose canons” out there. A large percentage of the Troops/Crews out there are led by competent, experienced leaders on all of their high adventure (read risky) activities. But like any large organization we also have those leaders out there who have no business being involved in the activities they are leading. Ideally those would go out and get an experienced certified climbing instructor, white water instructor etc. to run these events for them. Unfortunately a lot of you have seemed to have only met those units when they/you are out climbing. I agree with many of your posts, but those of us (competent ones) who try to get these young men and women (in the Venture Crews) involved in these great outdoor activities are stuck with trying to comply with rules and regs. sent down to us from National.
urban_rocker thanks for looking out for the BSA, but in reading petsfed’s post it sounds like he is an Eagle, so if he want’s to rant at the BSA I’d say he earned his shots having achieved their highest youth rank, and having gone thru the “system”.
jimdavis and mtnrsq, your points are well understood and many agreed with. As far as why carry rescue lines? We have to. Since at this time the youth are limited to TR only, a competent leader should not run into something that they cannot handle themselves, rescue wise. Unfortunately we do sometimes have problems with that word, competent. Sorry for the length of this post, just thought I’d offer my $.02 on the subject.
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tallelk
Dec 9, 2003, 6:10 PM
Post #39 of 45
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Have recently found out that the new standards for 2004 have been changed. They no longer have the 5000# rating for the anchor it is back to the 3500#. For all the scout instructors out their check the new standards for 2004 from your local council, I am told they should have it. Thanks for the advice that was given.
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earsen
Dec 9, 2003, 7:14 PM
Post #40 of 45
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2" webbing, 1" doubled, Tech cord, or static rope, for anchors are all options.
Spectra is only rated to 3000 not 5000lbs - so whoever posted that idea should be less eager to offer incorrect beta.
For ropes, stick to one person per rope and check out Edelweiss's static is really low stretch and Singing Rock's new 10.5 mm Route 44 "low stretch" rope, is just a static rope with a slightly higher elongation rating. It has a knot breaking strength of 22.3 kN and regular strength of 35.8kN.
climbonrock.com has both of these ropes.
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robmcc
Dec 9, 2003, 9:04 PM
Post #41 of 45
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In reply to: Spectra is only rated to 3000 not 5000lbs - so whoever posted that idea should be less eager to offer incorrect beta.
Depends on the spectra. My sewn bluewater spectra slings are rated to 27kn. Comfortably over 5,000 lbs.
Rob
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fullahsiffur
Dec 9, 2003, 10:00 PM
Post #42 of 45
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I'm a life scout from OK. Now that I know you don't want rants, don't read this.
"Three-fourths of Scouting is Outing."
In the same manner, two-thirds of the BSA is B.S.
In also the same manner, lots of scouts tend to be stupid and irresponsible.
Climbing and swimming at non-BSA camp would be a death sentence by BSA standards, yet no one gets hurt. At scout camp, on the other hand, tons of people get hurt every summer.
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philbox
Moderator
Dec 9, 2003, 11:03 PM
Post #43 of 45
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As far as your rescue loads goes for ropes. Why don`t you simply use two ropes for your rescues. This will then equate to only one person loading one rope therefore standard ropes will suffice. The good thing here is that you now have redundancy.
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jimdavis
Dec 10, 2003, 9:01 PM
Post #44 of 45
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Climbing ropes always have two people on them.
The belayer, and the climber. A rescuer jugging a counter-balanced line puts the same amount of force on a rope as does a belayer.
You have a system in balance, acording to newton's laws there must be a counter-force to keep the system in balance (the climber in the air.)
So having the belayer ascend is not putting too much force on a rope, it's the same as having a belayer on the ground.
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grog
Dec 10, 2003, 9:59 PM
Post #45 of 45
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Check out CMC rescue, they have a big selection. www.cmcrescue.com
Good luck
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