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crotch
Oct 7, 2003, 7:53 PM
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In reply to: Crotch...if you saw this place you would have a completely different view.
Maybe so. It is my belief that ethics apply everywhere, not just in Yosemite. Mind you, I've probably committed ethical violations myself, so.... glass house and all that.
In reply to: Who says that this person was the FA? No one every knows.
But we do know that Mitchal was NOT the FA. Adding bolts to an existing route is frowned upon in most places in the US.
This is a classic debate and we won't solve it here. If I keep posting, I'll end up sounding like an angry dick (if I already haven't) so I'm going to bow out of this discussion now.
I hope everything gets resolved to the satisfaction of the community and landowners.
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crotch
Oct 7, 2003, 7:57 PM
Post #27 of 67
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In reply to: Does every sport climb have to be an elitist event?
I said I'd bow out, but I can't leave this one alone.
Does every rock in the world need to be bolted?
Does every climb need to be a sport climb?
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ljthawk
Oct 7, 2003, 8:54 PM
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In reply to: This is a classic debate and we won't solve it here. If I keep posting, I'll end up sounding like an angry dick (if I already haven't) so I'm going to bow out of this discussion now.
Actually Crotch, I think your comments, for them most part, were very diplomatic.
Always work to talk with the FA and the local climbing community before retro bolting. If the FA can't be found find the most prominent climbers around and talk to them, as well as any guide book authors in the area. If you can't find the FA and get his / her blessing then in order to do it right you have to get the blessing of the active climbing community. Land owners, while they can give legal permission, may not have a clue to the ethical ramifications of what they are allowing.
Bolt wars are a result of differing opinions. Regardless of the point of view one takes (to bolt or not to bolt), both parties are guilty of the resulting scarring of the rock from chopping, replacing, chopping, replacing,........
Work it out before the bit touches the stone.
L.J.
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mitchal
Oct 7, 2003, 9:16 PM
Post #29 of 67
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Hi All,
I just talked with the 74 y/o woman who lives out front of me (On NEVERSINK MT.), She tells me her father and uncles climbed at neversink as youths when it was still a quarry. I was tempted to go accross the street and visit the graves where they are interred,but,thought it would be a moot point to ask them now.
The conservancy has the right to have this area bolted, or not,NOT the locals. It would not be in the locals interest to be VANDALIZING the route that they are happy to have as a teaching area for the local youths and others to enjoy the area.The removal and subsequent troubles just may cause them to close the area alltogether.Remember,,this is THEIR property they ALLOW us to climb on.
So, in that light,take your first ascent,and bolting ethics, and remember the wishes of the people who yield the power to allow climbing on the rock.They would rather see people learning a fun and exciting sport, than drugging and shooting up the local streets. The bolting permitted a learning area. Some yahoo with whatever motivation has taken that away. The Conservancy just may close the area down if dissention persists.
The Bolts will be replaced. this time with epoxy.
Mitchal
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crotch
Oct 7, 2003, 9:50 PM
Post #30 of 67
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In reply to: So, in that light,take your first ascent,and bolting ethics, and remember the wishes of the people who yield the power to allow climbing on the rock.They would rather see people learning a fun and exciting sport, than drugging and shooting up the local streets. The bolting permitted a learning area. Some yahoo with whatever motivation has taken that away. The Conservancy just may close the area down if dissention persists. The Bolts will be replaced. this time with epoxy. Mitchal
Aaarrrrrgggg!!111 It's like not trying to look at a car crash. I can't stay away.
Do you expect anyone to believe that a 30-foot bolted sport route will keep people from injecting heroin, while the same climb on toprope won't?
You are now embroiled in a bolt-war. Do you know the history of bolt-wars, and is being a part of one how you want your contribution to climbing to be seen? I have a feeling you aren't interested in that because you sound like you are trying to make a positive contribution, but maybe I'm wrong. You still have a chance to de-escalate the situation. Why not talk to the local climbers as roclimb suggests and obtain a consensus before retrobolting again?
If you put in bolts without further discussion amongst the climbers in your area, you can bet someone will be back with a hacksaw, rotary tool, or hammer. Then you too will be a party to the further destruction of the rock and potential subsequent loss of access.
Please SLOW DOWN and talk to your fellow climbers before this goes any further.
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needmoregear
Oct 7, 2003, 10:08 PM
Post #31 of 67
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what the hell? it's PRIVATE LAND. the LAND OWNERS
want THEIR LAND bolted. PERIOD.
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brianinslc
Oct 7, 2003, 10:11 PM
Post #32 of 67
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In reply to: So, in that light,take your first ascent,and bolting ethics, and remember the wishes of the people who yield the power to allow climbing on the rock.They would rather see people learning a fun and exciting sport, than drugging and shooting up the local streets. The bolting permitted a learning area. Some yahoo with whatever motivation has taken that away. The Conservancy just may close the area down if dissention persists. The Bolts will be replaced. this time with epoxy.
Last person I knew who bragged that their glue in bolts wouldn't get chopped, found them on their doorway. Sounds more about ego than anything else, both ways.
In reply to: Do you expect anyone to believe that a 30-foot bolted sport route will keep people from injecting heroin, while the same climb on toprope won't?
Good point.
In reply to: Please SLOW DOWN and talk to your fellow climbers before this goes any further.
Tough row to hoe. Private land with old school history and ethics. Tough to respect both.
Get a long enough thick static line and tie some loops in it. Hang it down over whatever route you want folks to lead. Voila.
"Learning" area could also involve teaching and respecting the long time ground up or no retro bolting ethics of an area too. Might be a better long term lesson than the fast food sports routes that are being proposed.
Brian in SLC
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brianinslc
Oct 7, 2003, 10:15 PM
Post #33 of 67
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In reply to: what the hell? it's PRIVATE LAND. the LAND OWNERS want THEIR LAND bolted. PERIOD.
I suspect they were talked into it. Do you really think a non climbing private land owner gives a rip about climbing ethics?
Look at Frenchman's Coulee and the whole bolt chopping history there. Climber's usually approach private land owners about the climbing on their land, not the other way around.
Good snake oil salesman could convince folks on either side of the issue.
Brian in SLC
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needmoregear
Oct 7, 2003, 10:20 PM
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Good snake oil salesman could convince folks on either side of the issue.
i hear you on that one. i really do. but alot of this discussion seems
to ignore the wishes of the actual land owner. climbing ethics must
always take a back seat to the wishes of the land owner. whether or
not the land owner was convinced to one thing or another is a different
argument.
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rwaltermyer
Oct 7, 2003, 10:41 PM
Post #35 of 67
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First of all, to avoid this from becoming just another Bolt War debate. If non-PA climbers could STAY out of this thread that would keep this thread more focused, and more informed on what is going on.
Secondly, Mitch are you intending to bolt the whole crag or just that one climb?
Thirdly...not sure.
randy
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gblauer
Moderator
Oct 7, 2003, 10:57 PM
Post #36 of 67
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Randy, as you know this particular climb is not protectable with trad gear. As such, Mitchal intends to rebolt only that climb. He had no intention to bolt any other climb. He wants to restore the ability to teach new sport leaders. (My 12 year old son did his first outdoor lead at Neversink).
As for Mitch talking to the locals. Mitch is a local, he actually LIVES on Neversink Mountain. Mitch spends hours hauling trash out of the climbing area at Neversink. He always talks to the climbers who seem to be enjoying his bolted line. Most of the climbers are not as local as Mitch.
Anyways...all we want to know is why? So if you know, please let us know so that we can clear up this mess.
Thanks all for this very lively discussion!
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pbjosh
Oct 7, 2003, 11:05 PM
Post #37 of 67
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In reply to: So according to you locals, there was never a good reason for bolting it in the first place. What? Just so someone can learn how to clip a bolt? Very lame.
Exactly. Jesus, every claim that's being made for bolting is being rebutted by the same folks. HAH!
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pbjosh
Oct 7, 2003, 11:14 PM
Post #38 of 67
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And before any counters that easy sport routes are great for teaching people to climb, don't bother. They're not. They teach people to lead easy sport routes, which is unbe-fcuking-lieavably easy to do anyways. They don't teach folks dcik about actual climbing. Gyms are a great place to learn not to back clip and not to step in front of the rope. Every piece of low angle rock in the world doesn't need to be bolted for this purpose.
I personally believe that easy sport climbs are retarded. The whole concept of getting used to falling and being ok to wing off routes is great when the routes are steep and difficult and moronic when the routes are easy and low angle. Bolts are great for hard gnarly routes and they're great for otherwise unprotectable stuff that gets put up on lead (ie, Tuolomne, or any other ground-up bolted locale), but a profusion of easy sport routes breeds a profusion of easy sport climbers which contradicts the original reasoning of sport climbing, to remove the fear and allow the climbing to be about maximum athletic difficulty.
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brianinslc
Oct 7, 2003, 11:23 PM
Post #39 of 67
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In reply to: First of all, to avoid this from becoming just another Bolt War debate. If non-PA climbers could STAY out of this thread that would keep this thread more focused, and more informed on what is going on.
This boltin' stuff is happening all over tarnation.
Why, then the world's mine oyster,
Which I with sword will open.
My bet is that you folks will solve more problems off the internet...
Good luck,
Brian in SLC
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gblauer
Moderator
Oct 8, 2003, 12:00 AM
Post #40 of 67
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In reply to: I personally believe that easy sport climbs are retarded. The whole concept of getting used to falling and being ok to wing off routes is great when the routes are steep and difficult and moronic when the routes are easy and low angle. Bolts are great for hard gnarly routes and they're great for otherwise unprotectable stuff that gets put up on lead (ie, Tuolomne, or any other ground-up bolted locale
I guess every sport climb must be an elitist event. I have to say it would be wonderful to climb as well as you. Most mortals cannot even dream to climb the hard gnarly routes that you must dance up. The rest of us have to work hard, develop our skills, build our strength (mental and physical) to get up half the grade you climb.
So...that being said...enjoy your rock star status while you can. You too will get old, you too will have to climb easy sport routes one day...
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rockjess
Oct 8, 2003, 1:49 AM
Post #41 of 67
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It may interest you jokers to know that Neversink Mtn. (despite what a shit hole you so called locals say it is) was at one time a popular spot to climb at. It was even mentioned in two different Pennsylvania guidebooks. Do you think that may have something to do with the fact the bolts were busted!? I cant believe you goofballs are in awe that someone removed your bolts. And you still want to know why? Why do you guys think that because you live a few blocks away you have the right to step on other peoples achievements. Obviously First Ascents mean nothing to you guys. Do you think because you guys (who by the sounds of things have been only climbing a short time) don't know who did the first asc that person does not exist. I have two F$%ing guidebooks that list the info about that spot. Of course Mitch does not give a s$&t because he says no matter what anybody says he is going to glue the bolts back in.
Do you guys have any clue about ethics or resolving issues. I feel really really really sad for the climbing ethics and standards in Pennsylvania.
By the way I have one serious questions. Do you elitists plan to retrobolt whatever you guys please from now on. Can I expect to go to my local crag at Chickies Rock and find Snow Flake bolted tomorrow? How about Chickies Direct. That has bad gear can I hope to find a bolt ladder stapled to it anytime soon? Seriously are you guys planning on bolting anywhere else?
Jessie
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kagunkie
Oct 10, 2003, 12:54 AM
Post #42 of 67
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It seems as though you touched all the bases rockjess. WELL SAID!
I was recently over there and noticed that those bolt placements have multiple holes? I fail to see the reasoning behind drilling three holes to place one bolt could someone please clue me in on this advanced technique for placing bolts? It looks like someone got a new toy and wanted to play with it. I think it would have been better to practice on a piece of rock like a small boulder instead of scarring the cliff. Perhaps you could just spray over those holes with a can of florescent orange paint. I am truly saddened to see that a fellow climber, (someone I know) could possibly believe its a good idea to cause permanent defacement to our precious and limited resource to satisfy his desire for a legacy and for convenience sake. That is a small return indeed and insults the rock and those who came before you for all time to come. Please don't take it the wrong way but I do think you were wrong to drill that cliff for all the above reasons.
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kagunkie
Oct 10, 2003, 1:43 AM
Post #43 of 67
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In reply to: (My 12 year old son did his first outdoor lead at Neversink).
Perhaps it would be better to pre-place gear on an easy route and allow "aspiring sport leaders" to clip fixed gear without bolting established lines. :idea:
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rwaltermyer
Oct 10, 2003, 11:15 AM
Post #44 of 67
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or go to birdsboro which is 10 minutes down the street
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mitchal
Oct 13, 2003, 8:31 PM
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Hi,
I drilled only ONE hole for each bolt. The other holes were already there. This can be verified if you just ask climbracer.As for "playing with a new toy", I did all my "playing" on little defenseless rocks in my back woods.Whoever pulled my bolts might as well have done the flourescent painting as the holes they left behind look WAY worse than the color matching anchors I installed. Had they been really worried about what it looked like,they would have filled the offensive holes when they were done.I can't believe (someone I know) would bash me without knowing the facts in the matter!
Thanks for your support Randy.
How come I don't hear any WHINING about "Orange Sunshine" being bolted? It is,after all,a crack.
Mitch
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capn_morgan
Oct 13, 2003, 9:07 PM
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I apologize if I offend anyone. But most of the last three pages of posts all seem to be based on assumptions and sound very childish. I think we all know that some people do not think that there should be any bolts anywhere. But that was not what was asked. It was a simple question and there have been a few suggestions as to where he may find the answeres. Most of the post though seem to be based on the fact that something was bolted and they do not have personal knowledge that the FAionist oked it. c'mon people. grow up. I have no more knowledge about this than most of you but to me it sounds like mitchel did this in the most responsible way possible.
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billcoe_
Oct 15, 2003, 7:27 PM
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Capn Morgan: I for one am offended! How dare you show up on this site with logic and facts. If everybody kept those opinions which were based on false assumptions and rumors to themselves, we would all be sitting around waiting for something to happen in the deaffining silence!!!1 :wink:
Well I guess you ended this thread with that obvious bit of logic and fact. Damn. :twisted: :evil:
:D :D :D
Regards:
Bill
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capn_morgan
Oct 15, 2003, 7:40 PM
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"Well I guess you ended this thread with that obvious bit of logic and fact. Damn. " ~billcoe_
sorry bout that..ill try and keep my logic to myself from now on :P
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kagunkie
Oct 22, 2003, 2:57 PM
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If you don't mind Id like to ask several questions about what was done at Neversink and your defense of it.
You said... "I drilled only ONE hole for each bolt. The other holes were already there."
(1) Why didn't you use the holes that were already there instead of drilling more?
You said... "As for "playing with a new toy", I did all my "playing" on little defenseless rocks in my back woods."
(2) How can you expect to add holes to a cliff and not get blamed for other damage already existing there?
You said... "Had they been really worried about what it looked like,they would have filled the offensive holes when they were done.
(3)Why didn't you fill those holes yourself since you were the one who decided that the cliff needed to be "fixed" and were already working there.
You said... "How come I don't hear any WHINING about "Orange Sunshine" being bolted? It is,after all,a crack.
(4)Why would you bring up the subject of a totally different area? Have you forgotten we are talking about the cliff at Neversink and what was done to IT. Are you the one who bolted Orange sunshine?
You said... "As for permission, I got permission to bolt the rock from The Berks Conservancy,of which I am a member. They own nearly all of Neversink Mountain. This was done with a very detailed discussion on the ethics of bolting,as well as the reason I wanted to bolt a line that was easily climbable as a teaching route."
(5) Who was the authority on climbing ethics you all consulted for this discussion? It must have been a very experienced climber to be qualified to convey the intricacys and long historiy of American climbing ethics.
(6) How did you drill those holes? Do you own an electric drill?
(7) Where els do you plan to drill? In my opinion if you don't do the work of doing the first ascent you haven't got the right to decide how it will be climbed in the future, so i hope your not expecting to bolt any more existing routes.
Don't get me wrong I'm just trying to get to the truth here and possibly educate others. Please don't take it personally but it looks to me like the work of someone who needs to climb outdoors for a few more years and with more experienced partners in more areas to develope a more realistic view of whats ethical in the climbing world. :?:
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climb_plastic
Oct 22, 2003, 4:11 PM
Post #50 of 67
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If it's OK to remove bolts then how come no one knows who did it? Sounds like the guy who did it didn't want to get caught. I'm sure he didn't just go out there in the middle of the day and cut them off. I'm sure a lot of the sport climbs I've done could be freesolo'd or climbed trad but I wouldn't want anyone chopping the bolts off.
What I've noticed is that the trad guys are very vocal, like they're protecting something that's not even theirs. I'm not sure what makes them so righteous. What if the free solo guys sat at the crag and told all the trad guys they can't use their gear there because it can be free solo'd?
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