|
andypro
Oct 8, 2003, 4:33 AM
Post #1 of 53
(5488 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 23, 2003
Posts: 1077
|
Iv'e been considering to switching to twin ropes this winter. I'm looking for both weight reduction and the security of redundancy. I have yet to chop or spear a rope (did nick one once :shock: ), but murphy's law is an evil mistress that just doesn't leave me alone.
What are the pro's and Cons of using twin ropes, as compared to 2 half or one single? Who uses them and who doesn't use them, and why?
I'm also guessing that I'm going to need a different belay device (I normally use a regular ATC). Something like the ATC XP or Trango Jaws I'm guessing? Or perhaps soemthing better that someone could recommend.
|
|
|
|
|
boz84
Oct 8, 2003, 5:25 AM
Post #2 of 53
(5488 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 7, 2002
Posts: 473
|
Never used twin ropes, but a regular ATC would work, unless you mean that the twin ropes are generally thinner diameter, and therefore, ya, the jaws or the XP would be able to give you more friction to stop a fall.
|
|
|
|
|
alpnclmbr1
Oct 8, 2003, 6:00 AM
Post #3 of 53
(5488 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 10, 2002
Posts: 3060
|
I bought the 8.1 beal ropes that are rated for both double and twin technique. The jaws work great for this rope system.
even though I own this system I usually lead on a 9.4 and carry the 8.1 for bailing. The main reason being that the rope management is much simpler and faster. Also I rarely rappel a lot in the mountains. I don't worry to much about getting my rope cut because I don't really ever fall in the mountains.
I haven't tried a thinner twin rope, but I would worry about the increased possibility of the ropes getting tangled when you toss them.
|
|
|
|
|
fabe
Oct 8, 2003, 6:18 AM
Post #4 of 53
(5488 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 11, 2003
Posts: 75
|
i've got one you can use for both, twin and half tecnique. but I usually use it as a twin rope.
nowdays half ropes are almost as thin and light as twin ropes. For that reason i think it makes more sense to buy a lightweight half rope.
i always belay with the BD ATC and it works pretty good even with the small diameters.
www.rockandice.de5.de
|
|
|
|
|
tradclimbinfool
Oct 8, 2003, 12:45 PM
Post #5 of 53
(5488 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 12, 2003
Posts: 89
|
One important thing to consider when deciding between rope systems is the potential impact force on your protection. Using 8.1 mm twin ropes will have roughly the same impact force as using a single 11 mm rope. Using half ropes (clipping only one small rope to each piece) you can significantly reduce the impact force generated in a fall. This can be an advantage while ice climbing or climbing above any questionable gear.
Personally I almost always lead with PMI Verglas 8.1 mm ropes. They are rated for both twin and double rope technique and I love this versatility! Once you use the system for a while, rope management really isn't that big of a deal.
I would definitely recommend a belay device other than a regular ATC. As smaller ropes become more and more popular, a greater number of belay devices are becoming small rope friendly, so now there are a number of good ones to choose from.
|
|
|
|
|
tendertendons
Oct 8, 2003, 2:55 PM
Post #6 of 53
(5488 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 11, 2003
Posts: 47
|
As far as I know the only 3 advantages of using twin ropes as opposed to a single is that:
1) You still have a rope if you manage to sever one with your crampons, ice axe, rockfall etc.
2) You can lessen the fall factor while clipping pro because one rope is always tensioned (if your belayer is attentive)
3) Full length rappels
Of course you get these advantages with the half-rope system (with a minor weight penalty) plus:
1) Less force on the pro after a leader fall
2) Great strategies for protecting a traverse (for both leader and second)
3) Ability to bring up 2 seconds simultaneously on a 3 man/woman team
Personally, I would (and probably will) go with the double rope system this winter as it has alot more going for it.
:wink:
|
|
|
|
|
scottharms
Oct 8, 2003, 3:14 PM
Post #7 of 53
(5488 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 11, 2002
Posts: 84
|
I have been considering this as well for the up coming ice season. I think that I'll probably go with a light half rope rather than twins for the impact force reasons. Plus a half rope will allow you to protect a meandering route by alternating clips with each half, allowing the ropes to run straight. A good belay device is the Petzl Reverso, which works well on skinny ropes, allows to easily lock off two seconds if one falls. Thier website has some good info.
Cheers
|
|
|
|
|
tradklime
Oct 8, 2003, 6:49 PM
Post #8 of 53
(5488 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 2, 2002
Posts: 1235
|
I climb with the Beal ice twins. The are 7.7 mil and have a combined impact force similar to most single lines.
There definitely advantages and disadvantages when comparing twins and half ropes. For a number of years I was completely set on half ropes for ice and trad. Recently, I switched to twins and I'm glad that I did.
The main reason is the weight savings. Another factor is that rope management is much simpler to me. Further, when on ice, I find that I'm much less likely to kick the rope, because running both ropes through all points of protection keeps them together better.
You do give up the rope drag reduction advantage of half ropes, but I have found with the use of runners and good judgement, it's rarely an issue, especially on ice.
Impact force of the rope should not be a major factor on ice because you should be using screamers.
Oh, and I use the metolious BRD for a belay device with skinny ropes, works great, a Trango pyramid flipped upside down works well too.
|
|
|
|
|
hugepedro
Oct 8, 2003, 8:06 PM
Post #9 of 53
(5488 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 28, 2002
Posts: 2875
|
I'm also using the Beal Ice Twins 7.7mm X 60m, and they're great. 7.4kn impact force is better than many single ropes. I went with twins over halfs for 2 reasons, weight and security. The UIAA drop test for halfs uses only a 55kg weight, and I believe they're required to hold fewer falls than a single line (although I can't remember the exact number), so if you take a serious whipper you could be pushing your rope's limit. Of course, that is why you have the second line, and you can (and should) "twin clip" your doubles when the route allows and you have a bomber placement. Having said all that, the final deciding factor for me was probably weight. My twins weight less than a 10.5mm X 60m single line.
I've belayed with a Reverso and Trango Jaws, and I add a second biner for more holding power on belay and rappel. A little trick I've found: if you use a smaller biner with your normal, large, pear shaped belay biner, place the smaller biner on top (so that it is the last biner the climber side of the rope bends over before it exits the device). This creates a sharper bend - more friction.
The 7.7's will hold in Reverso autoblock mode, but it's real close to not working. You have to pay close attention to it (as you should anyway).
|
|
|
|
|
pico23
Oct 8, 2003, 8:38 PM
Post #10 of 53
(5488 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 14, 2003
Posts: 2378
|
In reply to: I'm also using the Beal Ice Twins 7.7mm X 60m, and they're great. 7.4kn impact force is better than many single ropes. I went with twins over halfs for 2 reasons, weight and security. The UIAA drop test for halfs uses only a 55kg weight, and I believe they're required to hold fewer falls than a single line (although I can't remember the exact number), so if you take a serious whipper you could be pushing your rope's limit. Of course, that is why you have the second line, and you can (and should) "twin clip" your doubles when the route allows and you have a bomber placement. Having said all that, the final deciding factor for me was probably weight. My twins weight less than a 10.5mm X 60m single line.
I've gotta disagree
1. Do you have one iota of evidence that a half rope has ever broken in a hard fall?
2. How often do you take repeated factor 1.8 falls on ice?
3. You should NEVER double clip your double ropes except for redirection at the belay. Double clipping ruins the whole system takes away many of the advantages of a double rope system. It also increases impact force on both the climber and the protection point.
If you don't trust double ropes fair enough, but don't spread unsubstantiated myths around the climbing community due to your own paranoia
|
|
|
|
|
tenn_dawg
Oct 8, 2003, 9:14 PM
Post #11 of 53
(5488 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 14, 2002
Posts: 3045
|
Anybody else hear that?
It was the sound of the nail being hit right on the head.
Travis
|
|
|
|
|
hugepedro
Oct 8, 2003, 9:28 PM
Post #12 of 53
(5488 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 28, 2002
Posts: 2875
|
Pico, dude, take a chill pill.
In reply to: 1. Do you have one iota of evidence that a half rope has ever broken in a hard fall?
No, nor did I say that. I said that a severe fall could push the rope's limit, and it can, especially with heavy climbers, like 200kg (4 times the drop test weight). Some people may not be comfortable with that narrower margin of error.
In reply to: 2. How often do you take repeated factor 1.8 falls on ice? 3. You should NEVER double clip your double ropes except for redirection at the belay. Double clipping ruins the whole system takes away many of the advantages of a double rope system. It also increases impact force on both the climber and the protection point.
3. I said you can twin clip them when you have a bomber placement and when the route allows (meaning at that point you don't need the advantages of the double ropes and would prefer the security of a double clip). Obviously, I'm talking about rock here because there's no such thing as a bomber placement in ice (otherwise we wouldn't use screamers). The increased impact force you mention makes no difference (bomber placement). It's no worse than climbing on a thick single rope (again, I'm talking about rock here).
|
|
|
|
|
hellclimber
Oct 8, 2003, 9:42 PM
Post #13 of 53
(5488 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 23, 2003
Posts: 205
|
In reply to: 1. Do you have one iota of evidence that a half rope has ever broken in a hard fall?
Not to throw more fuel on the fire but I do have evidence. It is a Norwegian accident report. The accident happened 2003-06-08 in Romsdal. It is described as a controlled leader fall on a "good" camalot 20 m up the route. The camalot popped. One of the ropes broke. The rope that broke was single on the last 3 points of protection so the fall was elongated 15 m. The climber hit his head on the wall. The edge which cut the rope is described as "innocent" which I interpret to mean that it didn't seem threatening to the climber. The climber was experienced. The ropes used where double Mammut 8,5 mm. Source (in norwegian only): the accident report on www.klatring.no for the year 2003.
hellclimber
|
|
|
|
|
attitude
Oct 8, 2003, 9:52 PM
Post #14 of 53
(5488 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 24, 2003
Posts: 33
|
In reply to: No, nor did I say that. I said that a severe fall could push the rope's limit, and it can, especially with heavy climbers, like 200kg (4 times the drop test weight). Some people may not be comfortable with that narrower margin of error.
200kg is 440 lbs.
Huge is right.
|
|
|
|
|
tradklime
Oct 8, 2003, 10:12 PM
Post #15 of 53
(5488 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 2, 2002
Posts: 1235
|
In reply to: 3. You should NEVER double clip your double ropes except for redirection at the belay. Double clipping ruins the whole system takes away many of the advantages of a double rope system. It also increases impact force on both the climber and the protection point.
In my opinion, clipping both half ropes should be considered right off the ground or belay (when the fall factor is highest), the ice is good, and a screamer is utilized.
The "paranoia" relating to the strength of half ropes is real in my opinion and should be considered. Otherwise they would be tested in the same way as single ropes.
|
|
|
|
|
brutusofwyde
Oct 9, 2003, 12:37 AM
Post #16 of 53
(5488 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 3, 2002
Posts: 1473
|
In reply to: Never used twin ropes, but a regular ATC would work, unless you mean that the twin ropes are generally thinner diameter, and therefore, ya, the jaws or the XP would be able to give you more friction to stop a fall.
I use both twins and doubles, and my advice is to get a Jaws or similar device before you ever first tie into twins. It's real easy to lose control of a rappel or an fall with an ATC on thin ropes, especially thin, wet or iced ropes.
Brutus
|
|
|
|
|
brutusofwyde
Oct 9, 2003, 12:47 AM
Post #17 of 53
(5488 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 3, 2002
Posts: 1473
|
In reply to: A good belay device is the Petzl Reverso, which works well on skinny ropes, allows to easily lock off two seconds if one falls. Thier website has some good info. Cheers
A Plaquette is lighter, simpler, less expensive, and just as effective in all modes of operation.
|
|
|
|
|
pico23
Oct 9, 2003, 1:41 AM
Post #18 of 53
(5488 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 14, 2003
Posts: 2378
|
In reply to: In reply to: 1. Do you have one iota of evidence that a half rope has ever broken in a hard fall? Not to throw more fuel on the fire but I do have evidence. It is a Norwegian accident report. The accident happened 2003-06-08 in Romsdal. It is described as a controlled leader fall on a "good" camalot 20 m up the route. The camalot popped. One of the ropes broke. The rope that broke was single on the last 3 points of protection so the fall was elongated 15 m. The climber hit his head on the wall. The edge which cut the rope is described as "innocent" which I interpret to mean that it didn't seem threatening to the climber. The climber was experienced. The ropes used where double Mammut 8,5 mm. Source (in norwegian only): the accident report on www.klatring.no for the year 2003. hellclimber
No what you have is uncorroberated hear say. Evidence would be more decisive. I'd like to see pictures of the edge, I'd like to know the history of the rope, and I'd like to see a definition of the word innocent as it was used in the report.
Even if the rope was in grade A condition at the time of the fall you do realize ropes get cut often. I've read of several instances in the Gunks were a single fall gave a rope a core shot. Some of those instances were on single ropes and others were on skinny doubles. The rope could of broken from the fall alone but since we all know ropes don't break in falls it would be more wise to assume it broke as a result of both being cut on the edge and the fall. More to the point the fall you describe sounds like it wasn't a high factor fall because it sounds like a lot of rope was out, making it even less likely the rope would just break.
Sometimes the most likely answer is the best answer and most likely that rope was cut on the "innocent edge" before breaking.
|
|
|
|
|
robmcc
Oct 9, 2003, 5:07 AM
Post #19 of 53
(5488 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 1, 2003
Posts: 2176
|
I'm not going to go twin just due to fear of cutting a rope. The way I see it, I've never cut one yet, and if I ever do, I'll only have to deal with the consequences for a few seconds anyway.
|
|
|
|
|
fear
Oct 9, 2003, 5:21 AM
Post #20 of 53
(5488 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 16, 2003
Posts: 475
|
In reply to: I'm not going to go twin just due to fear of cutting a rope. The way I see it, I've never cut one yet, and if I ever do, I'll only have to deal with the consequences for a few seconds anyway.
Not always.... I have a nightmare where I'm on some pumpy WI4+ thing about 90' off the deck. I'm just about pumped out and fried when I sink a good bomber screw and clip it.... ahhhh.... Then I continue 6' over the screw on terrifying thin steep and brittle crap, only to hear my belayer yell something. I look down and realize I'm on a little scrap of rope. Cut clean through by my shiny newly sharpened monopoint.....
Plenty of time to deal with the consequences......
-Fear
|
|
|
|
|
hugepedro
Oct 9, 2003, 5:57 AM
Post #21 of 53
(5488 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 28, 2002
Posts: 2875
|
In reply to: In reply to: No, nor did I say that. I said that a severe fall could push the rope's limit, and it can, especially with heavy climbers, like 200kg (4 times the drop test weight). Some people may not be comfortable with that narrower margin of error. Whoa. 200kg is 440 lbs. Huge is right.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Yeah, brain fart on that one. I was thinking about 200 pound plus climbers since I had recently read some test data from PMI where they measured impact forces generated by heavier climbers vs. the 80kg UIAA standard. The jist was that heavier climbers should not be making safety assumptions based on the UIAA standard since severe falls can push the magical 12kn line. We may not think of ourselves a heavy, but I'm over 200# with a full rack, even more with a pack.
I pasted the link to the test data below because, even though it doesn't directly correlate to the half rope discussion (because they used a single rope), it sure as hell makes me think twice about the limitations of that 55kg drop test.
http://www.safeclimbing.org/Heavy_Climbers_Beware.pdf
|
|
|
|
|
andypro
Oct 9, 2003, 7:19 AM
Post #22 of 53
(5488 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 23, 2003
Posts: 1077
|
hmmm. I weigh anywhere from 210 to 230 depending on mood it seems. Slap gear on that, and I'm commin really close to that 114kg line. :shock:
Good thing I dont plan on taking any 1.7 FF falls. hehe. But hey..ya never know. Man...that would hurt.
|
|
|
|
|
esoteric1
Oct 9, 2003, 12:59 PM
Post #23 of 53
(5488 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 8, 2002
Posts: 705
|
Ive climbed on twins and would buy this system to climb on at tahquits, just because it makes raping easier, i would recomend keeping your belay device, and tying a prusic on raps, its not hard to catch someone but you go faster than your hand can take sometimes due to how hot you hand gets...
i say doubles in the mountains and singles in the desert.
|
|
|
|
|
dead_milkman
Oct 9, 2003, 5:23 PM
Post #24 of 53
(5488 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 2, 2003
Posts: 241
|
In reply to: I said that a severe fall could push the rope's limit, and it can, especially with heavy climbers, like 200kg (4 times the drop test weight).
200kg! Wow!
|
|
|
|
|
dead_milkman
Oct 9, 2003, 5:26 PM
Post #25 of 53
(5488 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 2, 2003
Posts: 241
|
In reply to: One of the ropes broke... The edge which cut the rope is described as "innocent"...
Well... did it break, or was it cut?
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
