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blueeyedclimber
Oct 23, 2003, 2:08 PM
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I wasn't sure whether to post here or in trad forum, but since, as far as trad goes, I consider myself a beginner, here goes.
I started trad this year and have only fallen on it once, but it was ten feet from the ground and my first piece pulled, ending in a deck that spraigned my ankle. I am not at the point where I feel totally comfortable falling on my placements. I have heard people give advice that you need to practice falling, which sounds reasonable enough. My question is this, I have been told that when you fall on gear you need to retire it. Now when do you make that distinction of what length fall means you have to retire the gear? I am a teacher and can't afford a lot of gear so I am not going to purposely take a long fall knowing that I may have to retire it. When you say practice falling on trad, do you mean short falls that will not hurt the gear? It's mainly my cam placements that I am refering to.When I put a hex, nut or tricam in, I usually know if it is solid or not.
Thanks,
Josh
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cedk
Oct 23, 2003, 2:17 PM
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Whoever told you to retire your gear was trying to get you to give them your cams. I hope you didn't fall for it. Inspect your gear after a fall but don't retire it. Be extra careful on RPs and small wires though.
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dontfall
Oct 23, 2003, 2:18 PM
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dontfall moved this thread from Beginners to Trad Climbing.
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data118
Oct 23, 2003, 2:21 PM
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After a fall, inspect your gear. If everything looks intact, climb on. If you're not sure ask a more experience climber or bring it into you local shop.
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howdidshedothat
Oct 23, 2003, 2:24 PM
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I agree withcedk, you don't retire gear when you fall on it, now if it is really screwed up, that's a different story...As far as practicing falls.....well I don't practice falling too much because I was taught you don't fall. If you feel that you will fall on,for example, a 5.10, you need to go down to a grade where you won't fall. Since you are new at leading, you don't want to push your climbing ability while you are still learning. Hope this helps 8)
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climboard
Oct 23, 2003, 2:30 PM
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I agree- the idea is not to fall on gear if possible. It will happen though so it is good to know how to take a fall properly. I certainly don't recommend falling on your gear repeatedly, especially if you are learning and don't have the experience to judge a good placement from a questionable placement.
My advice is to go to a gym, find a nice safe overhanging route, and practice a few falls there.
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blueeyedclimber
Oct 23, 2003, 2:31 PM
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In reply to: Whoever told you to retire your gear was trying to get you to give them your cams. I hope you didn't fall for it. Inspect your gear after a fall but don't retire it. Be extra careful on RPs and small wires though.
No, they didn't get any gear from me. But, I was mainly talking about long falls. Is there some sort of general formula that people use when retiring gear (i.e. 3 20+ feet falls, 5 years of steady use, etc.) or is it pretty much look at it, and "looks good, I 'll keep using it."
Josh
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blueeyedclimber
Oct 23, 2003, 2:34 PM
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In reply to: My advice is to go to a gym, find a nice safe overhanging route, and practice a few falls there.
The issue isn't falling, I've taken plenty of falls and know how to fall. The issue is, specifially falling on my trad placements.
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desertclimber
Oct 23, 2003, 2:38 PM
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deleted
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Oct 23, 2003, 2:49 PM
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retire gear after you fall on it? hell, i have mangled gear that's taken multiple falls from [i:584e4cc31a]my[/i:584e4cc31a] fat @ss that's [i:584e4cc31a]far[/i:584e4cc31a] from retirement. i would say to you that there are a lot of people on this site (and elsewhere) who woud blow smoke up your skirt without giving it a though. the french (those [i:584e4cc31a]wacky[/i:584e4cc31a] frenchies) call them ... how you say? ... [i:584e4cc31a]poseurs[/i:584e4cc31a].
as far as [i:584e4cc31a]practicing[/i:584e4cc31a] falling ... a more effective way to gain rapid knowledge as to what placements work, and, conversely, [i:584e4cc31a]don't[/i:584e4cc31a] work, i would suggest doing a lot of aid climbing. [i:584e4cc31a]clean[/i:584e4cc31a] aid, that is.
if you don't know how to aid, get yourself a book and read up on it. then go to your local trad crag and -- while on toprope, of course -- skank your way up some lines on aid. start on easy stuff and progress to more difficult. bounce test ... see what works and what doesn't. you'll be shocked to discover that a placements you deem "bombproof", say a # 13 stopper or a large camalot, will rip right out, while some jingus #2 bd stopper (rated only for body-weight) sitting on crystals will hang in there for [i:584e4cc31a]repeated[/i:584e4cc31a] bouncing and be a real bugger to clean.
armed with this first-hand knowledge, you can cast off on the sharp end with a better head and more confidence in your gear.
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fredo
Oct 23, 2003, 3:04 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: My advice is to go to a gym, find a nice safe overhanging route, and practice a few falls there. The issue isn't falling, I've taken plenty of falls and know how to fall. The issue is, specifially falling on my trad placements.
I have yet to retire a piece of gear. The most recent is a 20 footer on an old #5 Chiounard stopper. As for getting comfortable, I as well as a host of others posting from different threads offer this advice. Find an experienced leader to follow for a season. Cleaning pitch after pitch will teach you more than you can imagine. You begin to notice better placement options, how to place gear without flaming out, how to balence etc.. this may not be ideal in your situation but I think it works. You'll gain confidence in your placements over time. IMO the learning curv is steep for a reason. Anyway hope that helps
:) :)
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cracklover
Oct 23, 2003, 3:06 PM
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In reply to: I am not at the point where I feel totally comfortable falling on my placements.
That's a good thing!
In reply to: When you say practice falling on trad, do you mean short falls that will not hurt the gear?
Here's the root of your problem...
In reply to: I have heard people give advice that you need to practice falling, which sounds reasonable enough.
You're right, it sounds reasonable enough. But it's not! You should know better by now! You fell and discovered that, surprise surprise, pieces pull! Practicing falling on trad gear is the stupidest advice I ever see floating around on the net. The only way it makes any sense is to construct a bomber multi-piece anchor, and fall on that - and what does that teach you about trusting individual pieces? Nothing!
If you want to get confident about falling, go fall on bolts or multi-piece bomber anchors, if you must. If you want to get confident about placing gear, go aid climbing. But if you want to get confident about falling on individual pieces of trad gear, DON'T. You _should_ fear falling on individual pieces.
Sorry for the rant, BEC. Please don't take it personally. To answer your gear question: No, just because a piece gets weighted is no reason to retire it, otherwise there'd be no such thing as an aid climber. They often "test" pieces by subjecting them to heavier forces than the piece might feel if it was fallen on. The issue is whether a fall was hard enough to damage the piece.
GO
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climbingbum
Oct 23, 2003, 3:10 PM
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I didn't read all the posts, so sorry if this is a repeat.
My climbing partner and I would go out to a mixed route and practice falling on gear that had a string of bolts underneath our placements. If our piece pulled, then the bolts would keep our pathetic asses off the deck...
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hammer_
Oct 23, 2003, 3:14 PM
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Have you ever heard of a cam lobe breaking or its axle snaping in half?
The height of the fall does not matter IMO. However if you can see damage or if the cam is not working smoothly (due to a fall not lack of maint.) then retire it or take it to a shop and have them look at it.
Why would you practice falling on trad gear? If you want to learn how to fall safely there's no need to thrash you gear, go sport climbing.
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blueeyedclimber
Oct 23, 2003, 3:46 PM
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In reply to: Why would you practice falling on trad gear? If you want to learn how to fall safely there's no need to thrash you gear, go sport climbing.
Once again, this is not a post about comfortability in falling, but rather trusting my own palcements. I appreciate the help but I think some of the answers just confirmed my own feelings at the start. Dont' fall on trad. Since my trad fall, I have learned that pushing your placement ability and climbing ability at the same time (which at the time I didn't think I was doing) don't mix. So, I am committed to easy climbing(that I don't even have to think about) while learning how to place gear and build anchors in every situation. But, things can happen, even on "easy climbing (hold could break, bird could poop on me, attacked by hornets, etc.) Thanks for the help.
Josh
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soccer_fan
Oct 23, 2003, 3:47 PM
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I read a thesis paper published by someone at MIT ("CARABINER TESTING" Okal, Marianne, Final Report 16.621 Spring 2001) that would indicate that the plastic (permanent) deformation in the aluminum used for carabiners (same stuff in cams) occurs in the first few loadings, and then lasts for some 200+ loadings at a load less than the ultimate rated strength of biner.
In non-engineering speak if you've got a piece of gear rated to say 14kN (3181.8lbf) you can keep loading it for a loonngg time so far as you're not generating 3000+ lbf. I've also read that the most force you can generate in a fall is 2400lbf -
Sooo falling on gear can mangle it, but as far as causing material failure - not so likely unless its a huge whipper.
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hammer_
Oct 23, 2003, 4:00 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Why would you practice falling on trad gear? If you want to learn how to fall safely there's no need to thrash you gear, go sport climbing. Once again, this is not a post about comfortability in falling, but rather trusting my own palcements. Josh
Here's your answer, if you trust your gear placements then why not push your limits and risk a fall. Do you trust yourself? If you don't fall your not trying hard enough, just watch your flight path.
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jkarns
Oct 23, 2003, 4:09 PM
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You don't even need to go as far as going aid climbing. Just walk along the base of the crag and place gear. Clip a sling to it, put your foot in, and bounce! Start of lightly. If it holds, bounce HARD! You'll be able to figure out what works and what doesn't.
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afiveonbelay
Oct 23, 2003, 4:20 PM
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soccer fan is right. Why is 10 kN a magic #? Because for forces above 10kN on the human body, severe internal injuries can occur. The "climbing system" should be (is) designed to keep loading on the body below that #. The spring rate of the rope helps there. So does the tightening of the tie-in knot as it comes under load.... If you survive the fall the gear probably has experience loading within its rated tolerance (except micro gear). The pulley effect creates a load addition that is almost but not quite twice the impact force.
Be warned of the small load capacity of the wires on micronuts. Screamers help. :shock:
Inspect the wires for broken strands after a fall as well as more obvious cracks. Sharp edges can kink and break strands
When in doubt, talk to the manufacturer. I have found their tech help and quality engineers great. 8)
MOCK LEADING: I have an alternative suggestion for tying in the TR back-up. Instead of tying directly into the harness with the TR back-up, tie a bowline or figure-8 and with 2 biners clip this eye to the lead rope. If the mock leader falls, both belayers will lock off, there will be enough slack in the TR that the mock leader will be falling on their last placement and (hopefully) be caught by the lead rope. If the placement pulls, the TR w/ biners will catch the leader. NOTE: the mock leader needs to clip in the lead rope below the TR/biner back-up. With a gri-gri, one belayer can mock lead belay and TR back-up belay, but two friends are easier. :lol:
PS: place lots of pieces, weight them. jkarns is right as is mtngeo.
PSS: It's not the distance you are above your last placement. It's your distance you are above the previous placement before that should make you quake.
PSSS: go the petzl site and play with their fall simulator, its fun and educational :P
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iltripp
Oct 23, 2003, 4:23 PM
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To learn to trust your placements, there is absolutely no point in taking practice trad falls. If you don't trust the piece, you probably don't want to fall on it. I like to think that I can trust my placements, yet I still try to fall as little as possible. You say you are comfortable with the actual aspects of falling, so don't worry about that. Keep doing leads that you can lead comfortably without falling. Practice placing more and more gear. While doing these easier routes to practice leading, do some TR or follow someone else on some hard routes to improve on your climbing. Also, cleaning other people's gear on second will teach you a lot about placements. As your gear placement gets better, you can afford to try harder routes where you "might" fall, but practicing falls is just asking for trouble.
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bostonclimbah
Oct 23, 2003, 4:55 PM
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Hi Josh,
I hear where you're coming from, I had the same questions myself. It sounds to me like you need a solid explanation/demonstration of gear placement and how to analyze and understand its limitations. The safety of any placement is relative to the specific circumstances and can never really be tested until the actual moment it's called upon (unless you're aid climbing in which case you have a whole new set of problems).
Since you're from NE, I would recomend asking Santa for a day with Marc Chauvin up in North Conway. Though I am still very new to trad leading, I would also be happy to get out there with you and share some of things I picked up (hopefully not any of my bad habits).
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cracklover
Oct 23, 2003, 6:49 PM
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In reply to: Dont' fall on trad. Since my trad fall, I have learned that pushing your placement ability and climbing ability at the same time (which at the time I didn't think I was doing) don't mix.
Right on! Now that we've got that out of the way, I think I sense that you still have a question.
In reply to: So, I am committed to easy climbing(that I don't even have to think about) while learning how to place gear and build anchors in every situation. But, things can happen, even on "easy climbing (hold could break, bird could poop on me, attacked by hornets, etc.) Thanks for the help.
Exactly! This is why we place the best gear we can! :idea: You didn't say this directly, but I'm guessing that you would like to sharpen your learning curve re. gear placements? And why not! It's a fair dillemma - for those of us who don't practice falling on our trad gear, how the he11 are we supposed to know what's good and what's bad? After you've got the basics (which I know you have, BEC) I strongly believe that the best way to go is with a little easy aid.
Try Jane (5.11) at Crow Hill. This time of year, you won't find anyone on it. It's got plenty of gear placements, and every single time you place gear and weight it, you get instant feedback! You won't be able to tell a 10kN placement from a 5kN placement, it's true, but you'll learn fast the gradations between 0kN and 5kN (without necessarily putting a number on it). In addition to seeing how each placement responds to being weighted in the direction of a fall: You can see how the previous pieces respond to tension from the rope coming from the last draw pulling them out in another direction. You can see whether the placement is capable of holding a couple times body-weight by jumping up and down on it a bit. You will place a piece at least every 2 meters, and weight every single one. That's a million times more feedback on how good your gear is than just clean trad leading would provide.
And if you need a partner sometime, just give me a holler.
GO
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pirateclimber
Oct 23, 2003, 7:40 PM
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Why hasn't anyone suggested "bounce testing" his placements on the ground? Seems to me that if a cam blew it's more or a placement issue than anything.
I question anyone that would send someone with already questionable placements out and tell them to take "practice" falls on it!
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capn_morgan
Oct 23, 2003, 7:41 PM
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playing around aiding a crack does help alot. Tie yourself some aiders and get a daisy. After you pop a couple pieces your eyes for good placements gets a little better. :D (luckly I was already clipped into the next piece so i only fell about a foot) :P
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hawgdrver
Oct 23, 2003, 7:56 PM
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