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taino
Nov 11, 2003, 8:40 PM
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Hi all, Taking a trip to Oz next month, and will most likely hit quite a few sport routes while I'm there. I'm hoping that someone (or someones) can help with a question (and yes, I did a bloody search - I'm not a nOOb :roll:): I normally climb trad; lead up to about 5.5G, follow up to 5.7, TR up to 5.8-9 - at the Gunks, which are notoriously sandbagged. I realize that this might not be a direct conversion, but how would that rate in leading sport? You can safely assume that I know how to clip properly, can anchor off bolts, set up a TR if needs-be, etc; I just haven't done enough sport climbing to know any difference in difficulty. Thanks in advance for any pertinent information. T
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hangerlessbolt
Nov 11, 2003, 8:57 PM
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With the understanding that all ratings are subjective…there are other fundamental differences between sport and trad. One being weight. The amount of gear that you’ll carry on a sport route vs. a trad route means that you’ll be climbing lighter. Another being time it takes to place protection. Instead of searching a biner for the correct nut to slot…and then clipping a runner onto that…and the rope into that…you’re spotting the bolt…clipping the draw…clipping the rope…and making the moves. A third is the type of climbing involved. Trad climbing invariably follows crack systems, whereas sport routes consist face or slab climbing. *You will typically climb a few grades harder while leading sport routes than you do leading trad routes. You can push yourself more because the fear of a long fall is usually absent and you’re not going to be worried about whether or not those bolts are going to hold. If you lead 5.7 trad…you can probably lead 5.9 sport…even if you’re not sure…give it a shot and you might surprise yourself. Learn how to back off a sport route…and take leaver biners with you. *Disclaimer: All bolts should be inspected before trusting your life to them…if you don’t know what to look for…ask, and don’t climb until you’re sure. Some bolted routes have long run-outs, which subject you to serious harm or even death. Just because a route has bolts does not mean that it is bolted in typical sport fashion. Know before you go. I hope this helps. -Rob
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floridaputz
Nov 11, 2003, 9:04 PM
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I HAVE FOUND MOST SPORT CLIMBING AREAS START AT 5.10A. YES THERE WILL BE 9'S BUT MOST OF THE PLACES I HAVE BEEN THE MAJORITY OF ROUTES ARE 5.10 AND UP. I'M A LIFELONG TRAD LEADER. I'VE FOUND 5.10 SPORT IS 5.10 ! 5.11 IS 5.11. BUT THE ROUTES ARE BOLTED AND LESS DANGEROUS. SPORT CLIMBING IS CERTIANLY NOT RATED EASIER.
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crazygirl
Nov 11, 2003, 9:15 PM
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no, sport is not rated easier, but the ratings do vary depending on the climbing area... and i belive that there is a discrepancy at a 5.10 level. from my own experience, when i started climbing, i couldn't dream of following a 5.10 in the gunks, yet i could follow 5.10d in some other places. On the other hand, i think the discrepancy is only at the 5.10 level. my question to Tai, why is your following level different from your TR level?
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taino
Nov 11, 2003, 9:18 PM
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In reply to: no, sport is not rated easier, but the ratings do vary depending on the climbing area... and i belive that there is a discrepancy at a 5.10 level. from my own experience, when i started climbing, i couldn't dream of following a 5.10 in the gunks, yet i could follow 5.10d in some other places. On the other hand, i think the discrepancy is only at the 5.10 level. my question to Tai, why is your following level different from your TR level? I don't have to hang on and remove gear on TR. T
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crazygirl
Nov 11, 2003, 9:21 PM
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in that case, I would judge sport leading ability based on the following level, not based on TR level.
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hangerlessbolt
Nov 11, 2003, 9:58 PM
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Let’s use 5.7 as an example. Discrepancies can often be attributed to these factors: How many 5.7 moves are there? (Is it just a one move wonder…or is the entire route sustained 5.7) Style of climbing: If all you ever climb is juggy face…then you may find a 5.7 crack or slab route to be significantly more difficult. Climber(s) strengths who rated it. When you have 5.12 climbers doing FA’s of moderate routes…you may find that the grades are a little more sandbagged taking into account the strength and technique that it takes to climb 5.12 vs 5.7. When the routes were first climbed and where they are located. Older routes in older areas tend to be graded a little harder than the newer developed areas.
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okinawatricam
Nov 11, 2003, 11:36 PM
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Wait until you get where you are going to decide what to climb. Start on some routes that are easier than what you are use to, that way you can get a feel for the area. I think people say the Gunks are Sandbagged, but I spent a week there of the summer and didn't find that to be true. Maybe people who go to the Gunks for the first time haven't had the opportunity to climb roofs and place gear in horizonals. This would make the climber not farmilia with tose skill and naturally cause him/her to climb easier routes. Watch Gunky's on cracks when they travel and you'll see what I mean.
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holdplease2
Nov 12, 2003, 12:40 AM
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I've climbed and led many climbs at the Gunks (probably spending at least 60 climbing days there) as well as sport climbs in Red Rocks, Red River Gorge, several places in Arizona, and tradding in various places such as J-tree, Red Rocks, etc. In my opinion, leading a 5.5 trad in the gunks (and I led many) won't get you up the typical 5.9 sport climb really anywhere. However, if you could TR a gunks 10 clean and you have a reasonable lead head, you could probably lead 9 in many areas. If you like, you can scan through my route list on my profile...note how everything above a 9- in the gunks is recorded as TR, but that there are several 10 trad leads clean in other parts of the country as well as many sport red-points in that range. Says something, as I am not lacking for gunks experience. -Kate.
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ajkclay
Nov 12, 2003, 2:03 AM
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you said you were planning a trip to Oz and that you would like to climb sport here, but i wasn't sure about what your top TRAD grade is. If you are leading 5.10 you may find a few bolted routes, but from my experience in south australia and victoria, you won't find many sport routes below that. new south wales may be different, they would bolt any thing from what iv'e heard, but i don't really know. you need to be climbing 5.10c here in SA to find many sport routes. on the good news side, the TRAD climbing is great at any grade, there are some routes at 10 ewbank that are just awesome and get some of the best raves for any route from anyone, regardless of the grade they climb. You will find someone with a rack to climb with, so don't stress too much about not having a rack, let me know if you come to south australia
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freakystyley
Nov 23, 2003, 5:17 PM
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maybe the difference is in the climber - your "lead head" as someone wrote. I have climbed in CA, AZ, NM, CO, MO, IL, KY, NY and think all the numbers are fair give or take a grade - whether it be trad or sport. I say, try everything, especially if there are not big crowds...(takes that concern off your back so you can relax and not feel rushed) Climb until you fall! and most importantly - do not take route grades as gospil. if the line looks cool - try it. You can't climb harder unless you push your limits. simply because something says 12d does not mean off limits. just means next year! hang on and have fun on your trip!
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andypro
Nov 23, 2003, 6:16 PM
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In reply to: maybe the difference is in the climber - your "lead head" as someone wrote. I have climbed in CA, AZ, NM, CO, MO, IL, KY, NY and think all the numbers are fair give or take a grade - whether it be trad or sport. I say, try everything, especially if there are not big crowds...(takes that concern off your back so you can relax and not feel rushed) ( snipped for space...) I learned how to climb here on the "rinky dink" crags of the niagara escarpment. Was leading solid 10's trad no problem. Went out to yosemite, jumped on a few pitches thinking "I should be able to hit this no porblem". Boy was I wrong! I got my ass kicked all over the valley and back again. I've noticed there can be a large difference in not only the grades, but the way the routes are graded depending on the area. I've also noticed that you get the gymbies wanting to be "hardcore" and climb trad at the same grade they spurt climb as. Theres one route in particular that I dont know the name of....it was FA'd by guy who's climbing grew in a gym and sport, got on there, rated it 10D, but it was easier than alot of 5.9's. For Taino: What I mean by all this is ignore the grades. They're gonna be different depending on where you are, and who put the route up. as long as you dont get yourself on any R/X routes, go ahead and flail. Or send. Just have fun.
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dmon
Nov 24, 2003, 4:33 AM
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In reply to: Hi all, Taking a trip to Oz next month, and will most likely hit quite a few sport routes while I'm there. I'm hoping that someone (or someones) can help with a question (and yes, I did a bloody search - I'm not a nOOb :roll:): I normally climb trad; lead up to about 5.5G, follow up to 5.7, TR up to 5.8-9 - at the Gunks, which are notoriously sandbagged. I realize that this might not be a direct conversion, but how would that rate in leading sport? You can safely assume that I know how to clip properly, can anchor off bolts, set up a TR if needs-be, etc; I just haven't done enough sport climbing to know any difference in difficulty. Thanks in advance for any pertinent information. T Where were you planning to do your sport climbing? In New South Wales sport climbing starts at about 16 (5.8) and goes up steeply from there. At Nowra (Oz sport climbing central) there are very few routes below about 18 (5.10a). I'd say pack the trad rack.
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joemor
Nov 24, 2003, 4:57 AM
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if you are going any where other that nsw in oz take some nuts and cams... as the bolted lines in victoria start at around 22/23 and allot of them are half trad anyway.....
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joemor
Nov 24, 2003, 5:01 AM
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i just looked at the grade conversion chart and it looks like all the bolted lines in victoria start at american 5.10c/ 5.10d.... 5.5 is like aust 13 / 12 which there is definately no bolted lines at those grades! heres a guide to sport climbing in the grampians (victoria) http://www.chockstone.org/Grampians/Sport/Grampians_sport.html there is no sport at arapalies bar some hard lines... www.chockstone.org link to victorian climbing and forums ect!
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muncher
Nov 24, 2003, 5:02 AM
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Hey dmon what about Thompsons point at Nowra, a fair few routes under grade 18 there. No where else but still there is enough there to keep anyone happy no matter what their ability. As to the real home of Australian sport climbing, the Blue Mountains has very few sport routes below 5.9 with a few notable exceptions.
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dmon
Nov 25, 2003, 3:08 AM
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Yeah, there are a couple of easier routes at Thompson's, but not enough to keep anyone occupied for more than about 2 days, and the climbs at Nowra tend to be hard for the grade. Sloth (16) is pumpy as(and has a very high first bolt), Butthead is slopy and thin for a 17 and "everything but the wasp" has a thin start and high first bolt. Apart from that you have Santa's Little Helper (15) and a bunch of "meh" type climbs. Better to bring the trad rack and play in the mountains. Just checked my guide and it looks like the Dam Cliffs in the Mountains has some lower grade sport. Never climbed there though. Does the original poster know about carrot bolts? If you give us some area specifics we may be able to reccomend some good climbs.
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wallwombat
Nov 27, 2003, 6:22 AM
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I haven't come across 5.9 or below. It seems to start at about 5.10 as someone mentioned before. The easier climbs at Thompsons Point are pretty stout for the grade. I think the Dam Cliffs now suffer from access problems. It's been a long time since I was there but it's a bit of a micro-crag - one day would do it. Good luck.
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roadguy
Nov 27, 2003, 1:35 PM
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I was in Oz for a climbing trip a few years ago and I climbed in Tazmania, the Grampians, Arapiles, Mt. Buffalo and the Blue Mtns. My experience was that for the grades you're looking for Araplies will probably be your best bet to get up any significant number of routes due to the large quantity of easy to moderate trad lines to be found there. The rock is so unbelievablly solid and steep, you'll find 5.3 routes that seriously make you crane your neck to look up them, but once you're on them you find just the biggest holds you can imagine. I think its my choice for best crag in the world. But it also has some of the firmest trad ethics I have seen outside of the Meadows. But for sport climbing..I'm not sure cause we didn't really find to many we could touch. Most of them were way to hard for our climbing level and we were climbing in the 10 and moderate 11s. But good luck none the less. You should have a blast, the only thing I had a problem with was Aussie food. It sorta reminded me of English food made by Kraft..lol..but other then that it was a great trip.
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cfnubbler
Dec 4, 2003, 1:48 PM
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In reply to: "I normally climb trad; lead up to about 5.5G, follow up to 5.7, TR up to 5.8-9 - at the Gunks...how would that rate in leading sport?" About .11b at Rumney. And the Gunks aren't sandbagged, any more than J-Tree or Yosemite or the Adirondacks. -Nubbler
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blueeyedclimber
Dec 4, 2003, 2:03 PM
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In reply to: I HAVE FOUND MOST SPORT CLIMBING AREAS START AT 5.10A. YES THERE WILL BE 9'S BUT MOST OF THE PLACES I HAVE BEEN THE MAJORITY OF ROUTES ARE 5.10 AND UP. I'M A LIFELONG TRAD LEADER. I'VE FOUND 5.10 SPORT IS 5.10 ! 5.11 IS 5.11. BUT THE ROUTES ARE BOLTED AND LESS DANGEROUS. SPORT CLIMBING IS CERTIANLY NOT RATED EASIER. You should come to Rumney, nh. We have everything from 5.4 - 5.14+. Something for everyone. As far as being harder, the actual moves and technical difficulty should be the same (but are still subjective), but when you are trad climbing, there is a lot more mental games being played which make it seem a lot harder than it is. If you are proficient in placing gear, then clip 'n go should not be to difficult for you, so push your limits. Just like someone else said however, know the area and how it is bolted before you go. Josh
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