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voriand
Dec 11, 2003, 6:45 PM
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Climbing is a personal sport so each to their own.
Personally, Tape keeps my joints together better and keeps the flesh on my hands.
Now those new Mad Rock finger condoms that are coming out. Those will be interesting.
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hello_heino
Dec 11, 2003, 6:40 PM
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At what point does taping of the hands actually start to help one climb? Is there a line somewhere?
Why not just throw on some Boxing Gloves and wrap with duct tape?
Where is the line drawn between doing a hard climb, yet doing everything possible to make it easier to do?
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voriand
Dec 11, 2003, 6:45 PM
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Climbing is a personal sport so each to their own.
Personally, Tape keeps my joints together better and keeps the flesh on my hands.
Now those new Mad Rock finger condoms that are coming out. Those will be interesting.
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overlord
Dec 11, 2003, 6:46 PM
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tape only helps you reduce the pain, especially during a crack climb. it does not improve friction of your skin. IMHO unless youre climbing a crack or youre injured its actually a bad thing to do.
so, no, by my book its not cheating.
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froggy
Dec 11, 2003, 6:49 PM
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No :lol:
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madmax
Dec 11, 2003, 6:50 PM
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Taping is not cheating. That would be like saying climbing shoes are cheating. Tape helps mitigate bloody hands, but doesn't make you climb any "better." Yes, tape may help lessen pain on some climbs, but I wouldn't call that cheating.
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mtnjohn
Dec 11, 2003, 6:51 PM
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If you do use boxing gloves, please post a pic and let me know how it works out.
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hello_heino
Dec 11, 2003, 6:52 PM
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What if it enlarges the usable size of the hand on Jams?
What about if the edges of the tape friction against imperfections in the rock?
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hello_heino
Dec 11, 2003, 6:53 PM
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In reply to: If you do use boxing gloves, please post a pic and let me know how it works out.
There is a famous incident of a climb done by John Long in which he did use Boxing Gloves with Duct tape to send a Heinous off width. Among many, it was not considered to be a first ascent, and maybe even he was making a point? Thus the reference.
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sandbag
Dec 11, 2003, 6:56 PM
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In reply to: What if it enlarges the usable size of the hand on Jams? What about if the edges of the tape friction against imperfections in the rock?
:P
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hello_heino
Dec 11, 2003, 6:57 PM
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They are just questions......why so threatened? I thought this was a site for discussion.
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holdplease2
Dec 11, 2003, 6:59 PM
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I climb the same with or without the tape, in terms of friction. However, feeling less pain due to the tape does make me a little more willing to really pull down hard...
Tape really does seem to be about extending the number of climbs you can do or days of climbing, rather than performance improvement, though.
On the other hand...handjammies and madrock fingers be claimed to be for protection...but seem to have significant performance implications.
The madrock things could impact sport climbing...but we have the rough equivalent in terms of "hand jammies" for cracks. They are basically shoe rubber for the back of your hands. I havn't used them, but I feel that if I replaced my tape with these, I would have an advantage.
Re: Shoes - climbers have almost alwyas worn shoes when climbing. Most climbers have been able to select the material of choice and size for their shoes, surely thinking of the performance implications. Now we have improved these through fit and rubber composition...we have improved a tool that has always been there.
Re: Rubber gloves and fingers - far as I know, climbers have climbed largely bare handed (weather permitting) I don't know when tape came along. Now we have a new tool, in the form of rubber for our hands, that did not exist at the time of FAs.
Shoes vs Hand Rubber: One is an improvement on a tool that always existed and always mattered...albeit a dramatic improvement. The other is a new tool, not used before, invinted to improve performance.
The enjoyment of climbing is in the climbing. But part of that is in the watching of yourself get better over time and pull hard moves you didn't think you could. Do we want to get this enjoyment from training for more power and technique? Or do we want to get this enjoyment from buying better gear? Or both? At the end of the day, we have to ask what part of the climb was us, and what part was our gear, and where are we not sure? Where you want to draw this line is where you should draw the line regarding the tools we use.
Sorry to go beyond tape, but it seems relavent.
-Kate.
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rogueclimber
Dec 11, 2003, 7:05 PM
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I read Largo used a pair of leather gloves on the first free ascent of Paisano Overhang 5.12c back in '73.
Now thats Bad Ass!
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sandbag
Dec 11, 2003, 7:06 PM
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In reply to: They are just questions......why so threatened? I thought this was a site for discussion.
Im sorry, I shouldnt have projected onto you.... i was venting over this loser aaaaahole caller i was trying to help. I dont suck, and neither do you.
I use tape to stabilize joints, and if youre ever lucky enough to get a ganglion cyst along your fingers, its always good to use tape for the extra support.
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hello_heino
Dec 11, 2003, 7:09 PM
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One reason I asked:
I have artificial tendons in my left hand. They neither get stronger, nor do they get weak and tired. I have found that taping that hand allows me to many times inadvertantly use the tape itself as a means of staying on tights cracks, or cracks with crystals or other imperfections.
For sure it has made a difference on a handful of climbs. Enough so that I ask the question.
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slavetogravity
Dec 11, 2003, 7:15 PM
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In reply to: What if it enlarges the usable size of the hand on Jams??
In reply to: What about if the edges of the tape friction against imperfections in the rock?
For as long as climbers claim accents, and for as long as we have grades of difficult, we've got to have rules of what makes a legitament accent. If not, then I could go and claim the worlds fist 5.15d. Just give me a minute to find a ladder .
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madriver
Dec 11, 2003, 7:23 PM
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In reply to: Why not just throw on some Boxing Gloves and wrap with duct tape?
....crimpers......?....bad slopers....probably make the route a full grade harder..
mr 8)
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crankingclimber
Dec 11, 2003, 7:23 PM
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Just out of interest is there any tape out there which will improve friction? Climbing tape is essentaily sticky gue stuck to a thin layer of material and it can't possibly be that hard to either incorporate rubber into the material, or somehow forgo the material and use rubber. You would then have super friction tape! If this hasn't been done yet I imagine the only reason is that there isn't enough demand yet, but one day if/when there's enough climbers wanting it, I bet somebody would give it a go.
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alpnclmbr1
Dec 11, 2003, 7:24 PM
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What does "cheating" mean?
For the most part tape can often make it seem easier to do a particular route. In that sense it can easily be construed as cheating.
There are other times where being taped up will make a route much harder. (thin hands)
Taping to reinforce tendons is a moot issue since it rarely actually helps you climb.
So why you tape can become the issue. Do you tape so that you can get more mileage in a day? This can be a worthwhile tradeoff. Do you tape because you don't think you can climb the route without it? This is using tape as a crutch and all your doing is cheating yourself. For the most part people tape up in order to make it easier to get away with using poor technique.
Here is a clue for the ones who stick with it, skin sticks to the rock much better than any tape will. The caveat is that scar tissue doesn't stick as well as either.
Bottom line is that as far as I am concerned taping is cheating and the only person your cheating is yourself.
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dingus
Dec 11, 2003, 7:24 PM
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In reply to: Now to use JAMIES, THAT'S CHEATING. For as long as climbers claim accents, and for as long as we have grades of difficult, we've got to have rules of what makes a legitament accent. If not, then I could go and claim the worlds fist 5.15d. Just give me a minute to find a ladder .
Unless you climb butt naked with no climbing gear whatsoever, you are using tools to make an ascent easier. Underwear qualifies as cheating as surely as tape or hand jammies.
"We've got to have rules?"
Who's "WE" white man? I'm not sure I subscribed to your rule book. I doubt I would want to. I suspect you wouldn't be too interested in my book either.
See, cheating has two sides... cheat by lying about your ascent, or cheat yourself by defying your own rules. The first is sort of low, and the 2nd is sort of normal?
I use tape and hand jammies and lots of time I don't use anything at all. My ideal, steeped in the fine tradition of Yosemite climbing, is to avoid hand protection.
But I have a job in which badly decomposed hands are a liability. So if I have a big presentation on Tuesday and I'm crack climbing on Saturday, if I remember I will tape up just to spare my clients a hamburger hand.
Hand jammies do not out perform tape in my opinion. For my climbing and my hand size, tape is better. But I like the convenience of hand jammies... slap em on for that 50 feet of fisting and then take em off. Tape is a lot more of a hassle.
It's only cheating if you cheat.
DMT
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jt512
Dec 11, 2003, 7:35 PM
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In reply to: Unless you climb butt naked with no climbing gear whatsoever, you are using tools to make an ascent easier.
Actually, "tool" use to aid an ascent is not precluded by nakedness; however, I suppose a high pain tolerance would be a requirement.
-Jay
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sspssp
Dec 11, 2003, 7:35 PM
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In reply to: Here is a clue for the ones who stick with it, skin sticks to the rock much better than any tape will. The caveat is that scar tissue doesn't stick as well as either.
I hear this a lot (and I'm one who tapes a lot). Maybe it is true for most people. My skin is oily and sweaty enough that I feel I get a lot better grip with tape (I completey wrap my fingers up to the first knuckle).
I find also that I rarely have to chalk up since I'm not jamming with my skin (unless it is a finger tip/first knuckle jam).
But each to their own.
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sspssp
Dec 11, 2003, 7:39 PM
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In reply to: For as long as climbers claim accents, and for as long as we have grades of difficult, we've got to have rules of what makes a legitament accent. If not, then I could go and claim the worlds fist 5.15d. Just give me a minute to find a ladder .
Well, actually climbing a 5.15d with a ladder would be perfectly legitimate, wouldn't it? As long as you accurately described what you did (don't think you would get a lot of magazine coverage, though).
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camhead
Dec 11, 2003, 8:00 PM
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tape is for the weak. I personally just run the belt sander over the back of my hands every couple of days in order to develop callouses.
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drkodos
Dec 11, 2003, 8:09 PM
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Taping is vaginal. With the exception for those with medical needs, it adds 5 points to the wussification factor of a route. Proper jamming technique will never be learned if one relies of artificial aids. Once proper technique is acheived tape is not neccessary. With all the logic of a snake eating its own tail until it disappears, taping is cheating.
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