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dabhaid
Dec 14, 2003, 1:40 AM
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When trad climbing I've noticed people generally tie-in using the fig8 re-trace, but when sport climbing, and gym climbing, sometimes people tie in with a carabiner. I understand a retrace through both loops on the harness is more fail-safe than a biner through the centre, but in that case why would you tie-in using the biner? Percieved safety?
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vegastradguy
Dec 14, 2003, 1:44 AM
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more likely for speed than safety.
that being said, its not actually all that safe to be tying with a biner. do a thread search for quite a few discussions on the topic.
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pk
Dec 14, 2003, 1:52 AM
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Generally it's not good practice to use a biner for tieing in even if it is a locking. While climbing a licking biner can actually work it's way to an unlocked position from constant rubbing (especially while leading) check out this thread for two of the most widely used knots for climbing. These are the only two I would personally tie in with
http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=46838
P.K.
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neeshman
Dec 14, 2003, 2:07 AM
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Like they said. I started out tying in through both the loops that the belay loop goes through, then I got sick of tying/untying tying/untying tying/untying and started using a locking biner. Then one time I got to the top of a climb and realized that I had not locked the biner. It only took that 1 time to realize that not locking the biner is a really bad thing.
Plus some say that using the biner method puts 3 directions of pull on the biner, and since the biners were designed for only 2 directions then it is potentially unsafe.
Stick with tying in completley. It takes longer, but your life will take longer as well.
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diodesanddihedrals
Dec 14, 2003, 3:43 AM
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For top roping in some gym I don't have a prob with using a biner for a tie in. For leading in a gym I like to tie in with a retraced fig8. Outside, hands down fig8 retrace every time... unless leading in blocks, then I use two opposed gate lockers
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djnibs
Dec 14, 2003, 3:05 PM
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Hey.
In the gym I work at, we use autolocking carabiners. There are a couple reasons for that. Its quicker to leave the doubled fig 8s in, then it is to untie and retie, untie and retie. When we have b-day parties is just quicker and keeps them happy. I never use a carabiner to tie in. i can tie a retrace pretty fast, almost quicker than a double. That and its much more safe to use the tie in method, less hardware than can go wrong. And if you do use the clip in method, use 2 biners!!!!!
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chossmonkey
Dec 14, 2003, 4:04 PM
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Never lead tied into a biner. I can understand toproping large groups of newbees and using a locker to connect to the harness, but if you are an experienced climber it hardly takes more time to tie in than clip the biner and lock it. Not to mention it's much more safe. If I toprope something I like to have a bit of slack in the rope so I can move. In a fall there is a chance of cross loading. With beginners they are usually being winched up the route anyway or have the rope fairly snug so there is little chance of cross loading. If you are worried about untying have someone teach you the double bowline.
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wideguy
Dec 14, 2003, 4:11 PM
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I asked this question when I started and two good questions were posed to me. First, how much fun would it be to try and untie the knot your biner was on after it was weighted a couple dozen times without being untied and what does it do to your rope?
Second, are you really in such a hurry to climb and such a hardman that you can't afford or wouldn't want the few moments of rest you get when untying/retying?
Really, it's a matter of moments and the added risk of one more piece of gear in the potential failure chain. I would tie in. Repetition of this habit will make it second nature and may save your life someday.
Just mt $.02
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phaedrus
Dec 14, 2003, 5:51 PM
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The only time I've felt that it was okay to use a biner to tie in was when I was working ropes courses; it's pretty much standard practice there, or it was. (With the gate facing away from the participant.) Sometimes on ropes courses, speed does matter and the incidents of the carabiner rubbing against something are pretty nil; however, if it involves any other sort of climbing, indoors or out, I always go with an 8-retrace.
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pk
Dec 14, 2003, 6:02 PM
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I have already posted in this thread but I would like to reiterate myself a bit.
I have personally been half way up a sport route outside using and outalocking biner on a 11d that three of my buddies and I were trying to work out.
Half way up my third attempt on this severly overhanging wall I reached down grabbed the rope to clip in, there was quite a bit of rope drag on this route. As I reached for the rop the biner rubbed against my right leg and half opened itself*** That was 5 or so years ago and I will never use anything but the rope straight though my harness anymore.
I believe anything but a knot is insufficient for ANY type of climbing. Most of the climbers that I know of at least in the mid west have had similiar horror stories of being stupid and using biners to clip in. ( for those of you that use biners to clip in this is not an attack)
Anytime I take a noob climbing the very first thing they ever get taught is how to tie and untie a 8 not how to properly close a biner.
P.K.
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hema
Dec 14, 2003, 6:32 PM
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Never ever, use a biner for tying in while leading, PERIOD. As for toproping on not really overhanging routes (eather at the gym or outdoors) people generally use locking biners, but it is always safer to just use a retraced fig. 8 (as mentioned earlier trough both the upper and the lower holes, like the belay-loop).
As for using a biner while toproping double-biners gates reversed is the safest way, just remember to only clip the belay-loop. 'cause if you put the biners like you tread the rope (ie. trough the upper and lower holes) you will load the biner(s) on three axels (three-way loading) causing them to brake.
Usually when climbing outdoors I just simply tie in, and when in the gym use a single locking biner). But when ever I'm leading I alway tie in with a retraced fig. 8.
Here's me thoughts.
Ps. I have seen a video of simulated factor 1,3 fall on a crossloaded (three-way laoded) HMS-biner, it only took one fall to deform the biner really badly (infact it was almost ripped apart), the second fall made the biner shear in pieces.
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gipsy
Dec 15, 2003, 8:31 PM
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so then the question would be ... fig 8 retrace or bowline? a lot of the trad folks I am running into lately are using the later. is the one safer, or simply easier to break after a hefty lead fall (assuming, of course, that you have taken one?
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dmr
Dec 15, 2003, 8:36 PM
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http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=46838
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hema
Dec 15, 2003, 8:47 PM
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The forces bowline and fig. of 8 take are about the same but generally at elast where I live fig. of 8 is the standard. Bowline can also come undone easier than fig. of 8 (unless you do the Yosemite-bowline) but is definetly easier to untie when tighten (by a fall/falls).
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holdplease2
Dec 15, 2003, 8:56 PM
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Hi Guys:
A question...it has been brought up that clipping in with a biner through both loops on the harness would cause 3-way loading. (I personally always tie a fig eight)
I climb with some folks who belay with the biner through both loops on the harness, rather than through the belay loop. Is the "3-way loading" concern valid here?
Thanks!
-Kate.
Edited because number eight and parens makes emoticon
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chuffinator
Dec 15, 2003, 10:14 PM
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It does cause triaxial loading of the biner, but there is no significant force exzerted on the biner.
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alpnclmbr1
Dec 15, 2003, 10:34 PM
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from tom, the BD harness guy
In reply to: Many harnesses do not have a belay loop, usually because of geometric constraints. Is it safe to belay off a carabiner clipped through both the waistbelt and leg loop? On first look, you might think this is a classic case of triaxial loading of a carabiner - a definite no-no. At some modest load, however, the belayer's body will change position and the harness webbing will stretch so that the bottom of the belay carabiner gets loaded correctly. The load required to do this is pretty low, probably lower than the 6 kN side loading strength of a weak 'biner. |
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rgold
Dec 15, 2003, 10:50 PM
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For those who are interested, here is a link to the 5/12/95 post by Chris Harmston, "Belaying off harness/belay loop clarification," which includes the note by Tom Jones on belay loops.
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holdplease2
Dec 16, 2003, 2:50 AM
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Thank you, rgold, alpnclmbr1, and chuffinator for your responses...much appreciated! Thanks, also, for the effort to provide the direct quotes and link.
-Kate.
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iltripp
Dec 16, 2003, 4:15 AM
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Kate,
Maybe you missed this post (quoted below). It was one or two posts before you asked about the tri-axle loading. Maybe it answers your question.
In reply to: Ps. I have seen a video of simulated factor 1,3 fall on a crossloaded (three-way laoded) HMS-biner, it only took one fall to deform the biner really badly (infact it was almost ripped apart), the second fall made the biner shear in pieces.
I thought the link from Tom Jones was interesting and informative, but didn't really answer the question about clipping in to climb. It was more concerned with belay loops and addressed tri-axle loading while belaying off of a biner clipped through two points of the harness, but not climbing. Hema, if you know where to find that video, I would love to see it.
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rgold
Dec 17, 2003, 5:31 AM
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Some additional comments on carabiner tie-ins.
(1) It has been suggested that Tom Jones' comments on carabiners clipped directly to the harness are only relevant to the question of belaying, not tying in. It is true that Jones was addressing belaying issues. However, neither the carabiner nor the harness knows what mechanism is applying force to it, so the comments apply equally to a carabiner receiving force from belaying a leader fall or a carabiner receiving force from a falling leader's tie-in.
(2) Jones says that the carabiner, even if initially in a triaxially loaded position, will reorient before the force builds up to a level that will break the gate. This may be true for a standing or sitting belayer, but may not be true for a lazy belayer lying down. It also may not be true for a falling leader who is horizontal, back to the ground, when being caught. If your situation is the 1 in 1,000 exception to the rule and the biner doesn't reorient, you're dead.
(3) Alluded to in various responses in this thread and emphasized in Jones' post is an issue of more concern than triaxial loading: The fact is that in a disturbing number of cases, locking biners are not locked. Whether the user forgot to lock them or whether contact with the rope or other media cause them to unlock is unknown, but unlocked lockers occur enough to assert that tying in with a single locker is a dangerous practice, even for top-roping.
The danger of the unlocked locker has been discussed by Pit Schubert in the Journal of the UIAA, vol. 3, 2000. The entire issue is available as a .pdf download from the UIAA site (www.uiaa.ch). The file is nearly 3 mb and takes a long time to download if you have a dial-up connection. Here are two quotes from that article:
"In top-roping technique, especially at climbing walls or among students under instruction, attaching to the rope by karabiner is commonplace, because it facilitates detaching from the rope and going to another rope. Screw gate or self-locking karabiners are used for attachment. But several accidents have happened due to inadvertent and unwanted detachment from the rope. The number of accidents has increased during the last few years, often enough with serious consequences: two cases of paraplegia became known by now."
"The rope detached itself both from karabiners with screwlocking gates and from karabiners with twist-locking gates...it was always found that at the decisive moment the karabiner’s screwlocking sleeve was undone far enough for the gate to open."
The article goes on to suggest that if carabiner attachment must be used then either double lockers with the gates reversed should be employed. The article also notes that the DMM Belaymaster and the Petzl Ball Lock will not work themselves oven and so might be used singly, although the climber has to remember to lock them!
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robmcc
Dec 17, 2003, 5:41 AM
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In reply to: Generally it's not good practice to use a biner for tieing in even if it is a locking. While climbing a licking biner can actually work it's way to an unlocked position from constant rubbing
Wow. There are licking biners?!? I so need more gear. And they get unlocked from constant rubbing? Understandable, I guess I would, too. :shock:
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robmcc
Dec 17, 2003, 5:50 AM
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In reply to: Generally it's not good practice to use a biner for tieing in even if it is a locking. While climbing a licking biner can actually work it's way to an unlocked position from constant rubbing
Wow. There are licking biners?!? I so need more gear. And they get unlocked from constant rubbing? Understandable, I guess I would, too. :shock:
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pornstarr
Jan 9, 2004, 4:53 PM
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right way vs. wrong way
do what you wish, but it'll probably be someone who decided to tie in to their rope correctly that will assist in your rescue. They would rather just spend the day climbing, i promise.
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