|
|
|
|
cantbuymefriends
Dec 22, 2003, 3:42 PM
Post #1 of 8
(2628 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 28, 2003
Posts: 670
|
(This question came after reading the thread Belaying the second- Reverso or GriGri?
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...iewtopic.php?t=44647 )
I use a regular ATC now (always has) and bringing up the second is always a pain when the rope is running downwards from the belay. Sometime I use a Munther hitch, but my regular climbing partner (my GF) doesn't like the extra 6" slack she gets when the knot flips... (Never had any problem with rope twist, though...?). So I've been thinking of getting a Reverso.
But then I discovered that you can use a Trango B-52 in autoblock mode.
http://www.trango.com/B52InstructionSheet.pdf
The B-52 doesn't have that fancy extra holder loop that the Reverso has, you just clip the "Anchor biner" directly through one of the slots in the brake, and use an additional "lose" biner to generate the friction for braking (same as for the Reverso). Seems to be important also that you have the biner and the rope in the same slot.
So this made me think "Can I use an ATC the same way, and save the expense of another brake?". Anyone tried this? Suggestions?
(Disclaimer. I WILL try it out at home, in a safe environment, before trusting my or anyone else's life to it.)
|
|
|
|
|
smellyhippie
Dec 22, 2003, 4:41 PM
Post #2 of 8
(2628 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 11, 2003
Posts: 155
|
My experience with a Reverso has been positive--I totally dig 'em. It's a big step up from the munter because it'll autolock--you can bring your gf in close to the anchor and she can't go anywhere.
The disadvantage of the reverso deal is that it is somewhat difficult to lower a climber or give slack when the device is weighted. It's tough as long as your master point is set up around face/neck/chest level, but if there's some sort of cantankerous weirdness to it it gets harder.
It looks like the B52 has the same disadvantage.
By the by, it's not totally clear from your post about how you're bring the second up with an ATC...are you doing it off the anchor or off your harness or redirecting through the anchor then to your harness?
Nate
|
|
|
|
|
reno
Dec 22, 2003, 4:44 PM
Post #3 of 8
(2628 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 30, 2001
Posts: 18283
|
I don't think it's realistically possible.
The B-52 has a larger opening for the ropes to pass through. This larger opening gives you space for the anchor carabiner, while still allowing enough room for two strands of a 11mm rope. The ATC doesn't have that much space. I tried to set up my ATC for an autoblock in the same manner as a B-52, using my 10.5 PMI lead rope, a BD Quicksilver2 Locker as the anchor biner (the smallest locker I have,) and a BD Airlock for the blocking biner. Not enough space in the ATC slots to set it up.
Smaller diameter ropes might fit, but I recall reading somewhere that the autoblock process does not function as well with smaller ropes(was this on the Reverso press release? I can't recall where I read it.)
So, short answer: I don't think it's possible, or safe to rig an ATC in autoblocking mode.
|
|
|
|
|
melekzek
Dec 22, 2003, 6:18 PM
Post #4 of 8
(2628 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 16, 2002
Posts: 1456
|
Also another thing to consider is the strength of the material. Apperently B-52 is tested to be rigged through one of the slots, whereas ordinary ATC might not be designed to encounter this kind of cross loading. I would not use ATC in such coinfiguration, until I see some test data.
|
|
|
|
|
slobmonster
Dec 24, 2003, 12:02 AM
Post #5 of 8
(2628 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 28, 2003
Posts: 1586
|
Just go buy a Reverso. It's Christmas anyway, and you deserve it.
As for lowering with a 'blocked' Reverso, it's really not that hard; there are several techniques you can use. I have a double length sling that I use for this purpose: girth hitch the sling to the metal loop (the bigger one) of the loaded Reverso, redirect through a high point in the anchor, and either yard on it (light partner) or clip it to your belay loop and put some oomph into it. This will open up the locked device and you can use the tension from your waist, plus your brake hand, to lower your partner effectively. You can also haul quite easily through a Reverso.
Rope diamaters aren't a problem.
My experience with the B52 has been quite negative: it sticks too much.
Autoblock with an ATC will be a pain in your butt, even if you figure out if it's safe enough to belay in such a configuration.
Good luck. If you buy the Reverso I'd suggest reading the documentation that comes with it. Also, the Petzl web site has some excellent technical info, with illustrations to make it easier to figure out.
|
|
|
|
|
pirateclimber
Dec 24, 2003, 12:25 AM
Post #6 of 8
(2628 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 17, 2002
Posts: 114
|
In reply to: ...Can I use an ATC the same way...
NO
|
|
|
|
|
ryanhos
Dec 24, 2003, 12:57 AM
Post #7 of 8
(2628 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 8, 2003
Posts: 132
|
In reply to: I don't think it's realistically possible. The B-52 has a larger opening for the ropes to pass through. This larger opening gives you space for the anchor carabiner, while still allowing enough room for two strands of a 11mm rope.
This is absolutly true and a darn good reason for not attempting this setup with an ATC.
However, i feel the best reason not to attempt this with an ATC is that the ATC is not meant to hold a climber in this manner. When you use a B52 or a reverso in the described mode, you are making it part of the belay chain. And it has been designed as thus to provide strength so as not to be the weakest link in your sytem. A standard ATC is not meant to withstand such forces and may fail under load. The loads you put on an atc while catching a climber are ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE less than you would generate if it were directly receiving the force of a falling climber on one of it's lobes.
On a side note, I've been wondering this about the B52. If I remember the documentation correctly, they do not suggest (nor do they warn against) connecting the free biner (keeps rope in B52) to your anchor in any way. The entire system is hanging on that single power point biner and the 1/2 centimeter metal edge at the "top" of the B52. That tiny bar makes me worry. Would it not be advisable to connect the free biner to the power point with some sort of sling in case the B52 should fail/break? Of course it would shock load the system, but I'd take my chances shock loading an anchor over certain death any day.
Edit: Doh! Props to melekzek whose post i overlooked, but said this very same thing above.
|
|
|
|
|
bustinmins
Dec 24, 2003, 2:30 AM
Post #8 of 8
(2628 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 16, 2003
Posts: 507
|
I have played with(owned) the ATC, the ATC-XP, the Reverso and the Gri-Gri.
First off - let me say that I love the xp but prefer the reverso as it feeds on rap much better and it also has the auto-block as you belay from above. You just need to learn some hoist techniques(Z-pulley) should someone load the reverso and be unable to get back to the rock. If you are doing an overhang - I'd belay directly and not use the auto-block technique.
Overall :
1. Reverso
2. XP
3. ATC
4. Gri-Gri (unless sport or gym - then this is great otherwise it is a nice paperweight. :)
JD
|
|
|
|
|
|
