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philbox
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Jan 8, 2004, 4:14 AM
Post #1 of 17
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I have heard a story about a particular way hard climb that was put up recently. The developer had placed intermediate bolts to keep himself safe as he worked the route and when he got the route dialled he removed the intermediate bolts and sent the tick.
To me that is just weak and ego driven. How can anyone ever complete that route in the style it was first put up. No, this is not a troll, more an alert to highlight some ethically poor behaviour.
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diesel___smoke
Jan 8, 2004, 4:31 AM
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In reply to: ethically poor behaviour.
Isn't this the moral code sport climbers live by?
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socalbolter
Jan 8, 2004, 5:31 AM
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you're right - this is weak!
it's not uncommon for some difficult routes to have extra bolts that are intended as "work bolts." these are usually skipped during a redpoint ascent.
to remove them makes it impossible for others to work the route. this usually becomes a real problem on steeper routes where a fall (top-rope or lead) will leave the climber away from the wall and unable to continue without a fair amount of work to get re-established.
really no reason whatsoever for this to ever happen. if the FA party needed and/or wanted them chances are that others will as well.
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coldclimb
Jan 8, 2004, 6:40 AM
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Almost exactly what I was trying to say in the x-rated routes thread. Anyone who purposely makes a route more dangerous for the next guy should be beat repeatedly with a hex on a sling.
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hema
Jan 8, 2004, 6:49 AM
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In reply to: Almost exactly what I was trying to say in the x-rated routes thread. Anyone who purposely makes a route more dangerous for the next guy should be beat repeatedly with a hex on a sling.
You're absolutely right, but this goes only for sport climbs.
If the route is a trad one then it should stay that way and no bolts should be added. Mixed climbs are in my opinion shit, if they were developed that way from the start. In the other hand mixed climbs that started as a aid route are of cource mixed and should stay that way.
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crushingfinger
Jan 8, 2004, 8:03 AM
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Could it be that he was having a hard time with that crux even to the point that he did not now where the best place to clip from was? or that by working the problem enough he found that the other bolts took away from the fluidity of the climb and to clip the extra bolts through that section would actualy up the grade? also I think the real worry on bolted climbs is that there is no danger of ground fall if your 70 feet up and the fall zone is good is a 20 to 30 foot wiper realy that bad? Not to say this is the way I choose to bolt a line. Have you tried this climb? But then again I belive that it's not a moral issue. I'm glad that there are things that I can not yet climb.
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jkarns
Jan 8, 2004, 6:06 PM
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This is not a unique or new phenomenon, and, personally, I don't really have a problem with it. Many difficult routes at Smith Rock, for example, have these so-called "dogging" bolts.
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tweek
Jan 8, 2004, 6:54 PM
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In reply to: Isn't this the moral code sport climbers live by?
Thanks for adding to the discussion.
Is it possible to have anti-[male, female, bouldering, sport climbing, aid climbing, trad climbing, young people, old people, nalgene bottle carrying people, or anyone else] posts actually count against your posting total?
And No. To answer your question.
Hema, If you don't like mixed routes then I am confused. By the ethics as taught by RC.com if you have a route protectable by trad it is thus. If you have a route devoid of "safe" placements or a blank section then a bolt is added in order to make it climbable (if deemed appropriate by the first accentist, the local community, the land owners, and those people who chop bolts, who did I forget?) So in a section of a "trad" climb or maybe a pitch of a multipitch "trad" climb there is a face section devoid of placements what would you suggest? Free solo with a rope? Or should you bolt the whole climb to make it fall under the definition of "sport" climb? (My answer would be to enjoy mixed climbs like any other)
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jt512
Jan 8, 2004, 7:02 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Almost exactly what I was trying to say in the x-rated routes thread. Anyone who purposely makes a route more dangerous for the next guy should be beat repeatedly with a hex on a sling. You're absolutely right, but this goes only for sport climbs. If the route is a trad one then it should stay that way and no bolts should be added. Mixed climbs are in my opinion s---, if they were developed that way from the start. In the other hand mixed climbs that started as a aid route are of cource mixed and should stay that way.
Hema, you don't know what you are talking about. There are thousands of traditional routes that are partly or entirely protected by bolts. Bolts -- placed on lead -- have been used to protect traditional routes long before sport climbing was even conceived.
-Jay
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j_ung
Jan 8, 2004, 7:10 PM
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Damn right. hema, I got no problem with you dissing a significant percentage of routes in the world, but you should. Your missing out on some of the best lines around.
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diesel___smoke
Jan 8, 2004, 7:19 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: ethically poor behaviour. Isn't this the moral code sport climbers live by? And No. To answer your question.
I'm sorry, I must have it all wrong, I thought littering the ground with beer bottles, cigarettes, chalk balls and the rock with bolts mere feet from trees, inches from bomber chicken heads and cracks was ethically poor behavior. I guess I was wrong - I suppose I'll need to start looking up to these people from now on, stop cleaning up after sport climbers, and start contributing to such a pure existence as sport climbing.
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jkarns
Jan 8, 2004, 7:29 PM
Post #12 of 17
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In reply to: I'm sorry, I must have it all wrong, I thought littering the ground with beer bottles, cigarettes, chalk balls and the rock with bolts mere feet from trees, inches from bomber chicken heads and cracks was ethically poor behavior. I guess I was wrong - I suppose I'll need to start looking up to these people from now on, stop cleaning up after sport climbers, and start contributing to such a pure existence as sport climbing.
I gathered from the photos you've posted on here that you're an aid climber. I guess that makes you a freakin saint, Mr. if-i-cant-climb-it-with-my-body-ill-hammer-my-fat-ass-to-the-top!!!!! And from what I've gathered, a lot of those ledges on the big stone should be labeled as a biohazard wasteland, you tree-hugging pot-smoking environmentalist aid-climbing hippie!
Now that you have been appropriately flamed, will you calm down and say something productive?
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cfnubbler
Jan 8, 2004, 7:32 PM
Post #13 of 17
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Yup, work bolts are a fairly common occurrence on many steep clip-ups. I too am uneasy about them, but also understand their utility.
In reply to: Anyone who purposely makes a route more dangerous for the next guy should be beat repeatedly with a hex on a sling.
At the risk of thread hi-jacking, how in the world is choosing not to add fixed gear to a route "making it more dangerous"??? Leaving the rock as close to its original state as possible for the first ascensionist does not make a route "more dangerous". It is simply exercising a choice to not make it less dangerous.
Nobody can make a route "more dangerous" on the FA. All they can do is reduce the danger for future leaders, but they are certainly not under any sort of obligation to do so. Just as you are under no obligation to repeat the lead...
-Nubbler
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jt512
Jan 8, 2004, 7:38 PM
Post #14 of 17
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In reply to: In reply to: I'm sorry, I must have it all wrong, I thought littering the ground with beer bottles, cigarettes, chalk balls and the rock with bolts mere feet from trees, inches from bomber chicken heads and cracks was ethically poor behavior. I guess I was wrong - I suppose I'll need to start looking up to these people from now on, stop cleaning up after sport climbers, and start contributing to such a pure existence as sport climbing. I gathered from the photos you've posted on here that you're an aid climber.
He's an aid climber, and he's worried about sport climbers altering the rock with bolts? Aid climbing is the most destructive of all forms of rock climbing. I don't know what he's thinking.
-Jay
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crushingfinger
Jan 8, 2004, 11:24 PM
Post #15 of 17
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Aiding Sucks . I hate it . But so do bolts next to cracks, if there is a crack there I weld a piton for fixed pro. there is no need to be mad if you can't free it I have said it before: I love that there are things that I cant climb. I don't think that this stuff is realy what this thead was about .I think he was wondering the reason for removing work bolts from a route .right?
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muncher
Jan 9, 2004, 12:18 AM
Post #16 of 17
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Fu#$ me this got side tracked quickly. Getting back to Phil's post, if the FA's needed the "working bolts" then he should have left them in for others to do the same. If they were too embarassed to leave them there and thus be labelled a complete sissy by everyone for putting up a ridiculously over bolted route then that is their problem.
I guess there becomes a time when if you need to place bolts every three feet to work a route then maybe it ia a little over your head and it may be better to come back to it later. He did get the send eventually though I guess but still, pretty lame really.
I recall Tommy Caldwell explaining how he used a mini stick clip to work moves between bolts on Kryptonite. Maybe that would have been a better option.
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smkyrobinson
Feb 2, 2004, 6:16 AM
Post #17 of 17
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Working bolts have little to do with working the moves but access to cleaning every inch of the route and then finding and placing best clips for climbing the route, any one who is putting in steep stuff knows you might put in half temparies, especially if bolting on lead, nobody has the forsight to know where all the bolts should go first day bolting a new climb, and usaully working bolts are shity little sleeve anchors or super shallow studs, definitely not gear to leave behind for people to fall on. putting new routes is seriusly hard work and the contruction process is just that, most people are trying put out a high quality finished product, not a un asthetic grid bolted pile.
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