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dirtineye
Jan 12, 2004, 1:28 AM
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HAha this is not a troll, it's actually based on a conversation I had about a year ago with Arno. I won't say what he had to say about the subject, at least not til there has been some discussion. Maybe Arno will speak on this toipic.
In the conversation I was saying that I only cared about onsights, which at first blush sounds ego driven, but what I meant was, I care about an onsight but if I fall, and then complete the climb, I don't really care about climbing it again unless the climb is so attractive that I really want to experience the route again.
Now that I've had a little over a year to think about some of what Arno teaches, I think I would have to say that an onsight is still a feather in your cap, it's a good feeling, but on the other hand, perhaps if you can onsight a climb then it is not very close to your limit, or it does not seriously test you. You might really enjoy the climb, but probably you are not going to learn anything new about climbing technique or become a better climber as a result. If yo ucan onsight every 5.9 you run into, you probably would learn more on 5.10, where you can take some falls and have some difficulty completing the climb.
As for red pointing, is this an ego driven thing, or could it be made part of the learning process, or what? Maybe some of both?
I think a climb you fall on and then complete would be in a different category from one that you fall on and can't finish-- going back to finish a climb seems more worthwhile to me than going back for a no falls no hangs repeat.
Anyway, what do you think?
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jt512
Jan 12, 2004, 5:53 PM
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In reply to: In the conversation I was saying that I only cared about onsights, which at first blush sounds ego driven...
When you say you "care" about it, it sounds like you have some attachment to the outcome, so, yes, it does sound ego driven.
In reply to: Now that I've had a little over a year to think about some of what Arno teaches, I think I would have to say that an onsight is still a feather in your cap, it's a good feeling...
Getting a good feeling from having onsighted a challenging climb is not an ego thing. If we didn't get good feelings from climbing we wouldn't climb.
In reply to: ...but on the other hand, perhaps if you can onsight a climb then it is not very close to your limit, or it does not seriously test you.
You can on-sight at your limit or not, and it's not hard to tell which you're doing: If you barely made it, it was at your limit; if you walked it, it wasn't.
In reply to: As for red pointing, is this an ego driven thing, or could it be made part of the learning process, or what? Maybe some of both?
It could be either, but there is little question that if you don't work redpoints, that you are missing a valuable learning opportunity. You can't learn 5.12 moves on 5.11 routes. In fact, it is difficult to learn any new technique while onsighting at your limit. Under stress we tend to fall back on known technique. If you don't know how to drop-knee, it is unlikely that you will learn to do it when you need it on an onsight at your limit.
In reply to: I think a climb you fall on and then complete would be in a different category from one that you fall on and can't finish-- going back to finish a climb seems more worthwhile to me than going back for a no falls no hangs repeat.
I look at it all as learning. If I fall on an onsight attempt, I'll almost always work the route for a redpoint because the fact that I couldn't onsight the route has pointed out a deficiency in my climbing that redpointing gives me a chance to correct.
But it sounds to me like you are not a "redpoint climber" at heart. I am, in the sense that I constantly seek out climbs that are way above my perceived on-sight limit, and work the crap out of them until I can send them. I usually have two projects going: a long-term one, which might take up to a season to send, and a short-term one, which I might get in a day or two. So, what are my motivations: (1) I just like it, (2) it gets me stronger and better technically, (3) I find that the harder that routes are, the more interesting and fun they are; I love complex, committing sequences and, the harder the route gets the better the moves get. Is there ego motivation? Ususally, I don't think that there's much of that, but sometimes there is. I'm working my first 5.13 currently. It's a fun route, but, frankly, if it were rated 5.12d, I wouldn't have chosen to project it. When I started to work it, I wanted to bag a 13, but now that I've experienced the moves, my motivation has changed. I'm finding that this 5.13 is more fun than 5.12s, for the same reason that I find 5.12s more fun than 5.11s. Bigger numbers generally mean more interesting moves.
-Jay
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dirtineye
Jan 12, 2004, 6:35 PM
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I guess I feel like, if you onsight even barely making it, that is not really your limit. If you fall then you know that the climb is very close to or above your limit for sure.
As for redpointer at heart, I believe in training and getting better then repeating, not working moves over and over til I get em. It's a quirk maybe, and it comes from how John Gill said he prepared for a difficult climb ( the thimble I think) where to survive the climb falling was not an option, so he traied for a year to be able to get it right the first time. That impressed me.
I also do a lot of bouldering and that influences me in two ways: One, I tend to work much harder moves in bouldering than I do on routes, Two, although I will work a boudler problem over and over sometimes, I prefer again to try a harder problem a few times, and if I don't get it, move on, train, work similar but easier problems and then come back later and try again, hopefully as a better climber. I prefer this method to the "wire the moves" method.
I do have friends that go all out to wire the moves on particular problems, especially extremely hard ones, and it works fine for them, so I'm not saying there is anything wrong with wiring moves, it just seems too much like work to me haha.
Back to routes...
I will go back for a redpoint if the climb is attracxtive enough, but I feel like if I fall off and can climb back up and finish the climb, then it's time for another climb and I'm done with that one. On hte other hand, if I didn;t complete the climb, then there is still a reason to go back.
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fracture
Jan 13, 2004, 3:50 AM
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I enjoy redpointing because I enjoy difficulty. I don't find it particularly enjoyable to spend a whole day doing routes which are way below my actual ability (i.e. redpoint level).
Unfortunately this does mean that my onsight level is not so high as it "should" be. My onsight level is currently more than a whole number less than my redpoint level (though my best flash is off by 3 letters), probably mostly because I don't attempt onsights often enough (primarily only on road trips when beta isn't available). This isn't really a big deal though, since, as I mentioned above, memorizing difficult moves is what I really enjoy doing in climbing.
All that said; I don't see how redpointing could be against ww principles. Do you think it is? How about an argument as to how it so?
Jay: right on about more interesting moves on the harder routes. On sunday I managed to do the technical crux on a 5.13a traverse I've taken a few tries on (Block Party at Reimer's, in case anyone knows it)---the move involves a huge cross over, a toe in, and then a toe hook (with the foot upside down) next to it to lock you in place while you reach over to the next jug; the position is crazy, and requires insane body tension---you don't find moves like that on 5.12a.
But beside more interesting moves, what's really nice is the greater potential for learning. When you work problems that are "too hard", the stuff that is currently just plain "hard" is going to become easier. It's the "you get better by hang dogging, not sending" thing.
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dirtineye
Jan 13, 2004, 5:13 AM
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You guys sound like sport climbers! I stick to trad and bouldering, so probably we are from different planets but anyway...
It sems to me that it would be more difficult to try new routes than to try to redpoint.
Redpointing as a learning tool seems more like learning by rote to me.
As for interesting moves, I find that climbs that are not straight forwaard tend to have interestiing moves at just about any grade, as low as 5.6 if it is an old style 5.6. But then that's trad climbing. I've climbed straight forward trad 5.11 and had an easier time than on some 5.9 that has a little trick or two to it.
I don't see why you can't learn when climbing at your limit on an onsight attempt, in fact it seems to me that you could learn a lot that way. It is a ww principle to focus on and be open to the climb and learn from it.
Once you know the beta, a lot of the chance for learning is gone, isn't it? FIguring out a sequence is part of the game, and you lose that part once you have tried the climb and/or had the beta. Then it's all down to execution.
But my best climbing buddies place a premium on climbing the unclimbed, so that's kind of where I'm coming from.
For example, the first guy to go up a bit of rock, he finds the moves, fiind out if it can be climbed, finds out what he either knows or needs to know and learns on the fly, or flies sometimes, hahaha. And, once the climb is done, everyone else knows it can be done, so it's not the same ever again.
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jt512
Jan 13, 2004, 9:00 PM
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In reply to: I don't see why you can't learn when climbing at your limit on an onsight attempt, in fact it seems to me that you could learn a lot that way.
Who gets better faster, climbers who only onsight or those who hangdog and work routes? Do the top climbers work routes or just onsight?
Like I said above, say you don't know how to drop knee. How likely would you be to pull this move out of the bag the first time you needed it on an onsight? Not likely.
In reply to: It is a ww principle to focus on and be open to the climb and learn from it.
Yes, but by definition, you can't practice new techniques on an onsight. If you want to learn drop knees, you need to put yourself in situations that require drop knees. Until you become proficient at the move, you're going to be falling, which, by definition means you're not onsighting.
In reply to: Once you know the beta, a lot of the chance for learning is gone, isn't it?
Knowing what to do and being able to do it are not the same.
In reply to: FIguring out a sequence is part of the game, and you lose that part once you have tried the climb and/or had the beta. Then it's all down to execution.
It's down to refining the moves -- that is, doing them better -- which is part of the learning process.
-Jay
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dirtineye
Jan 13, 2004, 10:27 PM
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In reply to: Who gets better faster, climbers who only onsight or those who hangdog and work routes? Do the top climbers work routes or just onsight?
WHo cares? Are we in a race? If you like wiring moves, go ahead. And it is not a matter of all or none.
In reply to: Yes, but by definition, you can't practice new techniques on an onsight. If you want to learn drop knees, you need to put yourself in situations that require drop knees. Until you become proficient at the move, you're going to be falling, which, by definition means you're not onsighting.
What definition? It's still practice if you get it right isn't it? If you fell off everytime yo utried something new, that woudl be pretty unlikey as well as comical or evern dangerous. About drop knee, I really don't think drop knee is very difficult to do, In fact I beleive the reason it works is because it makes a particular set of features easeir to climb on. It even reminds me of what used to be called an "Egyptian".
In reply to: Knowing what to do and being able to do it are not the same. It's down to refining the moves -- that is, doing them better -- which is part of the learning process. -Jay
But there is indeed a difference in gaining the knowledge and the execution. Once you know what to do, the task is a lot easier.
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jt512
Jan 14, 2004, 12:25 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Who gets better faster, climbers who only onsight or those who hangdog and work routes? Do the top climbers work routes or just onsight? WHo cares? Are we in a race? If you like wiring moves, go ahead. And it is not a matter of all or none.
That's not my point. I was responding to your comment that you can learn new technique while onsighting. I was attempting to provide evidence that redpointing accelerates the acquisition of new technique.
In reply to: In reply to: Yes, but by definition, you can't practice new techniques on an onsight. If you want to learn drop knees, you need to put yourself in situations that require drop knees. Until you become proficient at the move, you're going to be falling, which, by definition means you're not onsighting. What definition? It's still practice if you get it right isn't it?
But you very rarely will on your early attempts. Hence, you fall. Then you either lower, in which case you've foregone a learning opportunity, or you try again, in which case you're redpointing.
In reply to: If you fell off everytime yo utried something new, that woudl be pretty unlikey as well as comical or evern dangerous.
I probably took 20 falls last weekend. Nobody laughed and I wasn't hurt.
In reply to: About drop knee, I really don't think drop knee is very difficult to do, In fact I beleive the reason it works is because it makes a particular set of features easeir to climb on. It even reminds me of what used to be called an "Egyptian".
The drop knee was just an example. Most people find it unintuitive. You may think it's easy now, but I'll bet you didn't learn to do it while onsighting.
-Jay
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dirtineye
Jan 14, 2004, 1:35 AM
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In reply to: But you very rarely will on your early attempts. Hence, you fall. Then you either lower, in which case you've foregone a learning opportunity, or you try again, in which case you're redpointing.
Hmmm, I'd say you are not redpointing til you leave the climb and come badk for another attempt. as long as you are still on it, you won't onsight after a hang or fall, you are not redpointing the way everyone I know defines it (a repeat of a climb but with no falls or hangs), but you are still on the climb for hte first time, and working it I guess.
In reply to: In reply to: If you fell off everytime yo utried something new, that woudl be pretty unlikey as well as comical or evern dangerous. I probably took 20 falls last weekend. Nobody laughed and I wasn't hurt.
But were you trying something new on every fall? For 20 falls that would be 20 new moves the way I am talking about the subject. You might have been working the same move over and over but that is different. You seemd to be claiming that trying a new move on a difficult climb would fail most of the time. I don't think that's true.
In reply to: In reply to: About drop knee, I really don't think drop knee is very difficult to do, In fact I beleive the reason it works is because it makes a particular set of features easeir to climb on. It even reminds me of what used to be called an "Egyptian". The drop knee was just an example. Most people find it unintuitive. You may think it's easy now, but I'll bet you didn't learn to do it while onsighting. -Jay
Actually, I read about egyptians in an old Royal Robbins book, and then tried it. Then some friends called it a knee drop. I was not climbing at my limit the first time I tried it, but it worked. Think about this. Someone had to do it the first time they needed it and it worked. Knee drop is just a way of using the outside of your foot, and that has been around a long time, as has the egyptian, which might be a fore runner of the knee drop.
I think such things are only counter intuitive if you don't do any traversing or jamming or any of the other things besides straight up ladder style face climbing. SOme people would say ggripping lightly is counter intuitive, but I've always gripped lightly, I never even knew overrgripping could be a problem til I heard about people doing it and pumping out because of it.
To clarify some definitions, onsight usualy means to climb a routes with no hangs or falls, while redpoint is to repeat the climb with no hangs or falls.
As for learning moves while onsighting, getting the moves right the first time, everyone surely does this to a degree, although probably not often while climbing at or near thier limit. Most climbing moves are pretty natural, and when you run into difficulty on a climb, you probably try stuff that feels right. At least some of the time that little light bulb goes on in your head adn you get that "aha!", feeling of discovery of something new to you and neat that works great.
If you approach climbing as problem solving this sort of thing happens all the time. It's like working a puzzle or proving a theorem. Sure you won't get em right every time, but sometimes you do, and sometimes you even get in "the Zone" and everything goes right. Ands getting in "The Zone" is part of what we are trying to do with warrior's way methodology.
Anyway, that's how I see it.
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shank
Jan 14, 2004, 1:50 AM
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In reply to: I care about an onsight but if I fall, and then complete the climb, I don't really care about climbing it again unless the climb is so attractive that I really want to experience the route again.
Question: If you don't fall, and get the onsight, do you climb it again?
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iamthewallress
Jan 14, 2004, 2:13 AM
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I think it comes down to what you want to learn. If you want to learn how to climb 5.13 moves, it's probably in your interest to be red pointing a lot. You will learn nuances of things that you didn't know before with successive effort. If your ego is making you do it for the tick, you're not doing it in the "right" spirit though.
If you want to spend your time discovering as much new terrain as possible, I think that you can climb in either a "I fell and don't care to go back and do it no falls" or an onsite fashion and still continue to grow and learn. If you climb that way because you love that type of learning experience it seems kosher to me.
Both climbers would grow more by experiencing the other's way to some extent, but I don't think that it necessarily needs to be contrary to the WW to climb in one style or the other. There is more to growing and learning as a climber than climbing the hardest possible grades, IMO. We can use that philosophy to rationalize not climbing harder than we do, which is not in the right spirit of things either, but I think that it's OK to say that you like to climb new routes and spend most of your time seeking learning experiences by pushing yourself on new routes.
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dirtineye
Jan 14, 2004, 2:18 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: I care about an onsight but if I fall, and then complete the climb, I don't really care about climbing it again unless the climb is so attractive that I really want to experience the route again. Question: If you don't fall, and get the onsight, do you climb it again?
If the climb calls your name, you sort of have to. Some climbs just speak to me, and I'm sure everyone has at least a few climbs they are drawn to from the first time they see em. And if a climb is so beautiful, or just so much fun, yeah I'll do it again. But as long as intriguing new potential routes on unclimbed rock are there for the climbing, the adventure aspect wins out.
A semi-famous southern climber likes to say, " An FA 5.6 is better than any repeat climb.", and I tend to agree. It also seems that the warrior spirit is also an adventurous spirit, so maybe that's why I like what Arno has to offer so much.
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jt512
Jan 14, 2004, 2:29 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: But you very rarely will on your early attempts. Hence, you fall. Then you either lower, in which case you've foregone a learning opportunity, or you try again, in which case you're redpointing. Hmmm, I'd say you are not redpointing til you leave the climb and come badk for another attempt. as long as you are still on it, you won't onsight after a hang or fall, you are not redpointing the way everyone I know defines it (a repeat of a climb but with no falls or hangs), but you are still on the climb for hte first time, and working it I guess.
Yes. Scratch "redpointing" and insert "working" or "hangdogging."
In reply to: In reply to: If you fell off everytime yo utried something new, that woudl be pretty unlikey as well as comical or evern dangerous. I probably took 20 falls last weekend. Nobody laughed and I wasn't hurt.
In reply to: But were you trying something new on every fall? For 20 falls that would be 20 new moves the way I am talking about the subject. You might have been working the same move over and over but that is different.
Well, if I try something 2 or 3 times and it doesn't work, I try something different, so I'd consider, maybe, half those attempts something "new." One move was a dyno to a so-so crimp. Sure I've done dynos before, but not that dyno on that route using those holds. I'd consider that a "new" or "unique" move. If it was a move I already knew, I wouldn't have fallen.
In reply to: You seemd to be claiming that trying a new move on a difficult climb would fail most of the time. I don't think that's true.
What I am claiming is that acquisition of new climbing schema is accelerated by working routes, compared with onsighting. How are you going go learn the more complex moves required on 5.12 routes by onsighting 5.11s? What is going to be the more efficient learning process, working 5.12s or onsighting 5.11s?
In reply to: Most climbing moves are pretty natural...
I totally disagree with that statement.
In reply to: ...and when you run into difficulty on a climb, you probably try stuff that feels right.
Exactly. That's the problem. On an onsight at your limit you try what feels natural, and what feels "natural" is what is known to you.
In reply to: At least some of the time that little light bulb goes on in your head adn you get that "aha!", feeling of discovery of something new to you and neat that works great.
You're going to learn a lot more new moves by climbing routes that are too hard for you to onsight. Each time you fall, you are forced to try something that different. You learn something, namely, that in a particular situation move A doesn't work, move B does. The next time you run across a similar situation, you know to do move B, not move A. You've learned. You've become a better climber.
In reply to: If you approach climbing as problem solving this sort of thing happens all the time. It's like working a puzzle or proving a theorem.
And how do you learn mathematics: by solving problems that you can get right the first time?
In reply to: Sure you won't get em right every time, but sometimes you do, and sometimes you even get in "the Zone" and everything goes right. Ands getting in "The Zone" is part of what we are trying to do with warrior's way methodology.
But part of getting into the zone, is having a large library of schema, so that you don't have to go analytical to solve a crux; your body knows what to do. And, as I've been saying, acquisition of that library of schema is going to happen a lot faster by frequently putting yourself on climbs that you can't onsight.
-Jay
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dirtineye
Jan 14, 2004, 2:50 AM
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I liked what wallress said....
And there is no doubt in my mind that wiring moves on difficult climbs will speed up your aquisition of skills needed for climbing difficult climbs-- I've seen it happen over and over again. I've even spent a whole day working on one move (boulder problem).
I just don't usually find wiring moves and working a climb for long periods of time to be much fun. And, I think that climbing over trad gear almost all the time, you tend to place a higher value on the ability to pull off a move the first or second time you try it. I also think that I use bouldering as preparation for trad climbing, and in bouldering I get all the technical improvement I can stand. Although, even in bouldering, I try to stick with the Bob Cormany rule of 4 tries and move on, and come back another day..
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fracture
Jan 14, 2004, 10:50 PM
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In reply to: And there is no doubt in my mind that wiring moves on difficult climbs will speed up your aquisition of skills needed for climbing difficult climbs-- I've seen it happen over and over again.
Earlier:
In reply to: Once you know the beta, a lot of the chance for learning is gone, isn't it?
I guess you've at least been convinced of something ;)
In reply to: I just don't usually find wiring moves and working a climb for long periods of time to be much fun.
If it's not fun for you, then don't do it. But how does not fun for you suggest it goes against ww principles?
In reply to: And, I think that climbing over trad gear almost all the time, you tend to place a higher value on the ability to pull off a move the first or second time you try it.
Climbers more interested in redpointing tend to place more value on the hardest climbs you are capable of doing than on what you can do onsight or flash. Of course, if you can do very hard things onsight or first try, it is of course impressive, but mostly because it implies that you can do even harder things redpoint.
This really has nothing to do with trad though. A lot of trad climbers actually do like difficulty, believe it or not, and work routes before they send them. Headpointers include danger in their definition of "difficulty", and work the hell out of some scary-ass routes before they climb "over trad gear". Being over trad gear doesn't force you to believe anything people try to tell you it should (e.g., falling is morally wrong, redpointing is cheating, french free is not cheating (;)), etc).
In reply to: I also think that I use bouldering as preparation for trad climbing, and in bouldering I get all the technical improvement I can stand. Although, even in bouldering, I try to stick with the Bob Cormany rule of 4 tries and move on, and come back another day..
"If you're not good at something right away, just give up".
What a horrible rule.
I've had experiences bouldering where I've done probably up to 30 tries on a problem before I finally get the move, or link the problem. Usually I can get the move every time after I get it once; indicating that I learned something. If I had walked away instead, I'd still be thinking the problem or move was "too hard". But even if you don't get it, it's still worthwhile: I probably did 15 tries on a 1-move V5 dyno the other day, and didn't get it (though I had a couple really close tries); but for some reason all the other dynos I've tried since then have seemed a lot easier ;).
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dirtineye
Jan 15, 2004, 3:00 AM
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I guess you don't know who Bob Cormany is, or you'd respect his ideas about bouldering. Just so you know, when John Sherman was working on Masters of Stone, he wanted Bob to be in the book, and there is a funny story about why bob is not in the book, but that's getting off topic.
To make this perfectly clear, moving on after 4 attempts is not giving up on a problem, you can still come back another day and try again, perhaps with a better perspective. You might even stick the move on the first try a day or two later. YOu also get to attempt a greater variety of moves in a session.
Not to put too fine a point on it, I'd say that if you try something 15 times without success, you might be practicing bad technique. That's another reason to step back, think it over and come back later.
On the rest of your post I have nothing to say, except that you seem have misunderstood what I wrote, and assumed things that you have no basis for assuming. No harm done. :)
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unabonger
Jan 30, 2004, 4:13 PM
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In reply to: Not to put too fine a point on it, I'd say that if you try something 15 times without success, you might be practicing bad technique. That's another reason to step back, think it over and come back later.
I haven't followed all the twists and turns of this thread, but I disagree with the statement above in the following sense: When I've been at peak fitness, hard bouldering sessions mean you'll often try something many, many times. It might not be that you are trying the same exact move, or sequence, but you are working over a section to incorporate very subtle complex kinesthetics that it takes to do the sequence.
If by "bad technique", you mean a technique that didn't result in success, well, maybe your right. Usually 15 attempts trying the same exact movement over and over means you either aren't powerful enough, or the technique won't work.
But normally the succession of attempts done in hard bouldering are attempts to change some subtle movement, or contraction, or grip placement, and you certainly learn something, so you aren't just slamming yourself against the wall with one "bad" technique.
It probably took me 100 attempts to climb some problems in the Hole at Morrison, but once I'd done them once, I usually am able to repeat them. I definetely learned. And that learning carried over to every other climb I did afterward.
UB
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dirtineye
Jan 30, 2004, 4:39 PM
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Registered: Mar 29, 2003
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What I'm saying is that you can still get your 100 attempts, but in blocks of about 4, on different days, or maybe even just an hour later. This gives you a chancre to mull things over in the back of your mind, and you get on a lot more stuff too.
As Bob said when I talked with him about this subject, those problems aren't going anywhere.
It's not a hard and fast rule either, sometimes you just get obsessed with a particular move.
I once spent hours working one move and didn't get it, but came back the next day and stuck it on the first go. It's good to give your subconcious a little time to work things out, if nothing else.
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fracture
Jan 30, 2004, 4:48 PM
Post #19 of 22
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Registered: Jun 13, 2003
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In reply to: As Bob said when I talked with him about this subject, those problems aren't going anywhere.
Admitting defeat. Boo.
As I said in the earlier message, I *have* sucessfully done moves on boulders after upwards of 15 tries in a row. It can't just be "practicing bad technique" if it works.
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dirtineye
Jan 30, 2004, 5:11 PM
Post #20 of 22
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Registered: Mar 29, 2003
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In reply to: Admitting defeat. Boo. As I said in the earlier message, I *have* sucessfully done moves on boulders after upwards of 15 tries in a row. It can't just be "practicing bad technique" if it works.
Nah not defeat, there's a time and a place for everything, and rules are made to be broken. On the other hand, even a blind hog finds an acorn every now and then, LOL.
Wow three Cliched homilies in two short sentences, is that a record?
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unabonger
Jan 30, 2004, 6:14 PM
Post #21 of 22
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Registered: Aug 8, 2003
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In reply to: What I'm saying is that you can still get your 100 attempts, but in blocks of about 4, on different days, or maybe even just an hour later. This gives you a chancre to mull things over in the back of your mind, and you get on a lot more stuff too. As Bob said when I talked with him about this subject, those problems aren't going anywhere. It's not a hard and fast rule either, sometimes you just get obsessed with a particular move. I once spent hours working one move and didn't get it, but came back the next day and stuck it on the first go. It's good to give your subconcious a little time to work things out, if nothing else.
I agree in spirit with what you say, and I think most of us have experienced the "aha" factor of returning later--but the number of attempts is probably going to be a lot more than 4 or 8 per day if you are talking about very hard bouldering. When you are very fit the point of diminishing returns on a hard problem comes after many more attempts than 4. And yes, spreading them out over some hours is common. Hell, four attemps isn't even enough for most people to understand the sequence of the first move on one problem I did at Morrison.
Difficulty is relevant here. Someone who's hardest problem is v3 might hit diminishing returns after a few tries. Someone who is currently hitting V8 can withstand many more.
Moving on from that argument, though--there is a wonderful phenomenon that occasionally happens at the end of long workout, and you rest, and relinquished hope that you will succeed. And you step on without expectation, and you hit all 10 moves perfectly. Yum. And I believe it happens because of many factors--one of which was the striving over multiple attempts to perfect the moves.
UB
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unabonger
Jan 30, 2004, 6:22 PM
Post #22 of 22
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Registered: Aug 8, 2003
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In reply to: As I said in the earlier message, I *have* sucessfully done moves on boulders after upwards of 15 tries in a row. It can't just be "practicing bad technique" if it works.
Exactly right--perfect technique on hard problems is impossible when every problem has a unique "technique". All the drop knee, shoulder roll, thumb catch, wild west crossler grips in the world won't get you up Death by Drowning if you've never sagged your ass down of the right toe hook at exactly the right angle for your body size before....
Generically saying "Technique" on these these hard problems is not exactly right--hard bouldering--let's say V5 and up just for arguments sake, take specific, subtle moves, the engagement of exactly the right muscle fibers at the right time. A simple, less precise backstep might get you up a v2, but it isn't going to get you up a v5 without some refinement if that's your limit.
Multiple attempts, dozens probably, are what refine that process to success at your given limit.
UB
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