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tobyhaughey


Jan 18, 2004, 9:08 PM
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I am just getting to grips with the 2:1 hauling rachet, but having hauled the haul bag to the belay stance I was wondering what the best way was to anchor the haul bag in position. And more importantly what the best position was and tricks of how I can get it there.

Any help would be great,

Toby.


strider


Jan 19, 2004, 12:15 AM
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I am just getting to grips with the 2:1 hauling rachet, but having hauled the haul bag to the belay stance I was wondering what the best way was to anchor the haul bag in position.

To anchor the bag there are about a millions different ways, depending on the situation. Where is your bag, where is the haul anchor, where are you and your anchor, etc... Generally, there are two methods however.
-You have a biner on a sling attached to the pig's haul point, this is your tether. When you haul the pig to the anchor you wrestle that sow over to your haul anchor and tie it in short to the haul anchor and clip the tethered biner.
-Another method involves a tether cord permanently attached to your pig and the use of a load release knot. In this situation, you haul the pig up and tie the pig to the haul anchor using the tether and a "load release" knot. This knot can be released easily under the weight of the pig. You also tie the bag in short to the haul anchor as a back-up.

In reply to:
And more importantly what the best position was and tricks of how I can get it there.

Any help would be great,

Toby.

A couple tricks. There are two main ways to attach the rope to the pig.
-Figure 8 on a bite that will never be unclipped from the pigs haul point. After you lead the pitch and make the belay and haul anchor, you pull up and stack all the slack in the haul rope. Before the line gets tight your partner should un-tie the clove hitch that attaches the pig to the lower haul anchor. Then he will yell, "That's the pig!!!" when you have pulled up all the slack. Now you attached the haul device to the haul rope and haul the pig up a few feet. Your partner the unclips the pig's tether and you haul like a madman. A separate lower out line will be needed if the pitch traverses or overhangs.
-You can also use a different method. When you lead the pitch, create the haul and belay anchor and have your partner attach the haul rope to the pig with an alpine butterfly knot. The slack that is still in the haul line will now be used to lower out the pig on traversing and overhanging climbs. The method has two drawbacks. One drawback is that you unattach the pig from the haul rope so if you fuck up then kiss your bag goodbye. Another drawback, if the trailing line is too long it might get caught on the ride up.

The best position for the pig is usually under my butt, where I can sit on that fat, cushy sow. Then you can use your belay seat as a back rest. Ahhhhh, luxury. Also, if you are on scary aid, you might want to consider rigging the pig as part of a dynamic belay. But that is another story...

Good luck, don't kill yourself.

-n


tobyhaughey


Jan 19, 2004, 2:01 AM
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Thanks for the help, one question though. If I was to leave the haul bag attached to the end of the haul line permanently i would need a lower out line as you said (especially if I want to do WFLT). What thickness/ length would you recommend?

Cheers

Toby.


timpanogos


Jan 19, 2004, 2:46 AM
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Strider,

I never thought about a long haul line loop getting blown and in trouble.

Good point.

Next time, I'll estimate the lower out, and attach the spare to the pig.

You can - cussing all the way - rap down and fix a stuck rope that is i vertical, but scary thought getting it blown horizontal and caught on some flake 30' away.


strider


Jan 19, 2004, 5:22 AM
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In reply to:
Thanks for the help, one question though. If I was to leave the haul bag attached to the end of the haul line permanently i would need a lower out line as you said (especially if I want to do WFLT). What thickness/ length would you recommend?

Cheers

Toby.

I did WFLT and we didn't use a lower-out line, we just let that baby loose. It was fun to watch. This is obviously not recommended for various reasons, but anyway...

Any kind of line would work, it isn't meant to hold body weight, it's job is simply to lower out the bag. My REI sells 50ft of nylon cord for a couple bucks that you are supposed to use for staking your tent, but it would work great here. For WFLT most of the lower-outs would be about 20 or so.

-n


mrhardgrit


Jan 19, 2004, 2:35 PM
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Toby, i think i might have some spare lower out line lying around back in Bath, that I can let you have some time.

Tom


tobyhaughey


Jan 19, 2004, 5:21 PM
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Hi Tom hows it going? That would be cool if we could borrow it. Geoff and i are getting pretty excited about the trip.

Will send you an email,

Toby.


ricardol


Jan 19, 2004, 6:10 PM
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with a 200' haul line you should have plenty left over to lower out the bag

-- ricardo


elcapinyoazz


Jan 19, 2004, 8:59 PM
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Part of the beauty of aid climbing is that it's one big engineering problem. There rarely is one "right" answer, the answer is usually "well, it depends". This case is no different. Depending on the nature of the route, you might choose either of the methods mentioned above.

I always attach the bags to the anchor with a load release backed up by the haul line with a tiny amount of slack.

If you choose to permanently attach the pig to the end of the haul line, you can use your tether as a lower-out. On a "normal" route, I typically have a 10-20ft piece of old static as the tether/lowerout. I use old fat static line because it's already laying around from retired haul lines. If I take a separate lower-out line I usually take a skinny static 7mm or 8mm that doubles as a zip line when not used as a lower out. I use this line again because it is around my house already...I have a 7mm static that I use in alpine situations where i want a lightweight second line for raps, and an 8mm static that I use as a haul line while soloing short walls.

Obviously on something like Iron Hawk's KB traverse you're going to need a separate lower-out line. Even tying the pig in short on the haul line probably will not give you enough excess rope to lower it out all the way(you may say "close enough" and let 'er rip though...probably not the best idea).

Don't automatically assume that a long traverse will require a separate line though. There are a few pitches on the Sea that go almost totally sideways, but the only one you would probably need a separate lower out line for is the Hook or Book...BUT, since you can haul it more or less straight up from the anchor two pitches below, you don't really need it there either.

My preferred method is having about a 15ft piece of 11mm-ish static as a tether and using the zip line for anything longer.

Either way, I prefer to leave my bags tied in to the end of the line. It's a little extra time to haul up the slack and stack the extra line, but it's trivial compared to the disaster of a dropped pig. I never tie my bags in short partly because of this and also because of the problem of protecting the knot on the haulline. With a fixed knot in the end, you have your cut-off 2 liter coke bottle over the knot. With a butterfly in the middle, I don't see how you could protect the knot from getting chewed up...there's probably a way but I've never put any thought into it. I guess you could feed the cut off bottle up the line from the pig end, then attach the line, but by the time you do that you could have already hauled and stacked the excess line. Or just climb steep routes.


flamer


Jan 19, 2004, 10:55 PM
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I use an adj. Daisy on the bag. I posted about this awhile ago so you should be able to find it. With this method you will still need to employ some way to lower out the bag(when needed).
Best thing you can do is try a couple of different methods then use the one that works for you.
HAVE FUN!!
josh


brutusofwyde


Jan 20, 2004, 12:11 AM
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In reply to:
Thanks for the help, one question though. If I was to leave the haul bag attached to the end of the haul line permanently i would need a lower out line as you said (especially if I want to do WFLT). What thickness/ length would you recommend?

There's absolutely no need for a lower out line on WFLT. The two pitches off Awahnee can be hauled as a single pitch. Just let the bag swing. So in answer to your question, I would recommend 0 length, 0 thickness.

Brutus


iamthewallress


Jan 20, 2004, 1:25 AM
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The only thing that you really need to worry about (layout-wise) when setting up your anchor (and as stupidly simple as this sounds, I've had to undo the macrame several times...) is make sure that when the leader takes off, the haul line does not end up underneath the lead line.

Otherwise for a typical belay set up, I try to have the pig off to one side and the humans off to the other. W/ 3 bolts or more (or other bomber gear), I'll tie two web-o-lettes into two bolts each, sharing the middle bolt, and attach the humans to one and the pig to the other.


dsafanda


Jan 20, 2004, 11:58 PM
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There's absolutely no need for a lower out line on WFLT.
Agreed. I think I posted this photo once before but it seems appropriate here. Although it might be a bit spooky to watch, simply letting the bag cut loose worked just fine for me on the WFLT. Here's the view you'll have.
http://www.safanda.com/...ngtower/images/5.jpg

The hauling is so easy on this route...there's not much need for a 2:1 in my opinion but sounds it like it's a system you're familiar with.

For anchoring the pig I've always just used a daisy chain and back it up with the haul line and a figure eight. However, I can see the appeal of a load release knot for certain situations. Anyone have a link to a diagram of such a knot that doesn't require wading through a PTPP essay? Thanks so much.


brutusofwyde


Jan 21, 2004, 12:47 AM
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I don't think it's what PtPP recommends (I've only scanned his essay on the subject, being patience-impaired) but we used a Munter-Mule combo on our last wall (which had some huge lower-outs) and it worked just fine.

Brutus


tobyhaughey


Jan 21, 2004, 12:58 AM
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Cor bloody hell... nice photo dsafanda, certainly food for thought. Can't wait to get my teeth stuck in to monster of a wall. I cant help but think that i am very likely to brown it a bit though.....


dsafanda


Jan 21, 2004, 1:16 AM
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Don't think of the WFLT as a monster of wall. Keep telling yourself it's just 5 rather steep pitches and I'm sure you'll cruise it. Have fun!

Thanks for the Munter Mule tip Brutus.


timpanogos


Jan 21, 2004, 5:57 AM
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If you are soloing, you will want to dock that piggy cause you are going to want to tie the very end of the haul line to your anchor so you can jug back into it.

So you are planning on a partner - who knows when you might need that haul line to unbugger yourself!

Even if you don't use it all/everytime - fixup the pig with docking teathers and know how to use them.

Chad


okinawatricam


Jan 21, 2004, 7:19 AM
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I like to have a Fifi on a a short sling permanently attached to the pig. When I haul to the belay, I hang the bag from the fifi and back up the fifi with a clove above. The fifi keep the weight off the knot making it easy to release for the next haul.


strider


Jan 21, 2004, 7:32 AM
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In reply to:
The only thing that you really need to worry about (layout-wise) when setting up your anchor (and as stupidly simple as this sounds, I've had to undo the macrame several times...) is make sure that when the leader takes off, the haul line does not end up underneath the lead line.

Otherwise for a typical belay set up, I try to have the pig off to one side and the humans off to the other. W/ 3 bolts or more (or other bomber gear), I'll tie two web-o-lettes into two bolts each, sharing the middle bolt, and attach the humans to one and the pig to the other.

I just wanted to highlight this. One of the first things I learned was to keep the haul system on top of everything. If you shared a belay anchor with the haul anchor then the haul anchor goes on top. If you have two different anchors, then you keep the belay anchor closet to the next pitch and the haul anchor furthest away. So if you are standing at the anchor and the next pitch starts to your left, then the belay anchor is furthest left and the haul anchor is furthest right.

-n


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