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fracture
Feb 2, 2004, 3:52 AM
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So, apparently it's pretty common practice down in el portrero chico to simply clip in two cowtails when you reach the bolted belays, and then either belay off the harness or belay off a directional through either a third bolt or one of the two.
So far the only multipitch routes I've done were trad routes at hueco tanks, which had either bolted belays (two bolts) or gear belays (over the tops of the last pitches). I used a cordelette to equalize both the gear belays and the bolt belays. I'm potentially heading to potrero sometime soon, and haven't yet heard a sufficiently convincing argument to let me leave my cordelette at home.
The things that I can see potentially wrong with the direct clip-in are that it a) may potentially not be quite as well equalized (kinda bs point, because a cordelette has the same problem), b) if there are three bolts you are only going to use two for the actual "anchor", and c) if you are using a directional through one of the pieces on a two piece anchor (instead of through the equalized master point) you have just eliminated the benefits of your equalization by the increase in force due to the pulley effect.
Anyone have comments on the direct clip-in "anchor"? (In particular, a defense of it would be nice, assuming it is defensible).
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rokshoxbkr19
Feb 2, 2004, 4:02 AM
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It is totally safe. Go get Climbing Anchors written by John Long or More Climbing Anchors and there are sections devoted specifically to bolt anchors and how to use anchors with 3 bolts. An equalizing figure 8 works well there too. There are many ways to do it, but it is definitely safe.
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fracture
Feb 2, 2004, 4:23 AM
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In reply to: It is totally safe. Go get Climbing Anchors written by John Long or More Climbing Anchors and there are sections devoted specifically to bolt anchors and how to use anchors with 3 bolts. An equalizing figure 8 works well there too. There are many ways to do it, but it is definitely safe.
This paragraph contains no arguments. :( It may very well be safe, but what I'm looking for is some more concrete adressing of my concerns.
Anyway I've read More Climbing Anchors. None of the bolts-only anchors discuss this direct clip-in method, instead he recommends using a double bowline on a bight, cordalette, etc
Another question for y'all: would you use this direct clip-in on a multipitch trad anchor (bolted or gear)? It seems pretty low quality to just clip directly into two cams and call it your "anchor"....
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unabonger
Feb 2, 2004, 5:51 PM
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I used my webolette on multipitch routes in Portrero. I'm not sure what you mean about the 'lette not being equaized. You should be able to set it up so that it's well equalized.
Often I clipped off a third bolt with a clove hitch on my end of the rope as a backup, and to the powerpoint, as my 'lette wasn't long enough for 3 anchors. Clipped Grigri to the equalized 'lette, belay off that.
Yes, sometimes you are depending on 2 bolts only as not every belay has 3. Safe? That's for you to decide. Safer than 2 cams? If they are all in perfect placements, I'd say the bolts are safer because they resist force better from all angles. And how often do you find a "perfect" cam placement?
The FailsaferBonger
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vegastradguy
Feb 2, 2004, 6:43 PM
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"skimping" and "anchor" should never be used in the same sentence, regardless of the type of protection being used in said anchor.
make it safe, your life depends on it.
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tedc
Feb 2, 2004, 7:39 PM
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In reply to: ... Anyway I've read More Climbing Anchors. None of the bolts-only anchors discuss this direct clip-in method, instead he recommends using a double bowline on a bight, cordalette, etc ....
Explain to me the difference between this "direct clip-in" method and the other two bolt methods described. If you can explain this, you will have answered your own question; if you can't you had probably better do some serious studying before your Potero trip.
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pbjosh
Feb 2, 2004, 8:07 PM
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Go read some more, think about it some more. It is important to note, however, that you should NOT use daisy chains for this unless you are only clipping into the last loops of them as the other loops are not full strength.
Here's a brief breakdown:
If you have two lockers connected to two slings connected to your harness, you have full redundancy and have only 4 pieces in the system.
If you have two biners (locking or not) connected to two slings or two two strands of a cordalette connected to two more biners connected to the rope connected to your harness, you're still just as safe but have more gear in the system - no real advantages.
Other ways of doing this include:
-Connecting a cow's tail to one bolt and connecting the rope to the other bolt via a locker.
-Connecting the rope directly to one bolt via a locker and connecting a sling or draw to the other bolt which is then clove hitched to the rope.
-Climbing with twin or double ropes and simply clove hitching a rope onto each bolt with lockers (my prefered method for sure when climbing with two ropes).
Of note is that redirecting the belay though an anchor point is a completely seperate argument. This is common practice and should not be unsafe if done correctly.
If you're worried about one or both bolts failing you probably shouldn't be climbing on them. Good bolts should not be expected to fail and you should feel as if you could anchor off just one of them, but be happy that there are 2-3 as ultimate redundancy and anchoring convenience.
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j_ung
Feb 2, 2004, 8:27 PM
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In reply to: And how often do you find a "perfect" cam placement? The FailsaferBonger
That's why I carry one with me wherever I go! :)
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hendicrimpin
Feb 2, 2004, 8:55 PM
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i've always just clipped a couple locking biners one the bolts and attach my daisy as needed. I just make sure i always attach the free end of my daisy chain back into my belay loop - so i have 2 points of contact to the wall. It's reasonable equalized and very, very quick and easy. I was in potrero for 2 weeks this new years and saw most doing it the same way. Course i only do this with 2 good bolts - but if you are feeling obsessivel just take your cordellete or simply use a self-equalizing rope tie in. it all works.
ps. i think its funny when people say don't use a daisy chain except for the end loop......i mean, isn't that the whole point of having a daisy chain?! :P
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cfnubbler
Feb 2, 2004, 9:35 PM
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As long as you're swinging leads with your partner, the best way to go is to tie directly in to lockers on the 2 bolts in a manner that statically equalizes your anchor. Their are several ways to do so, and I won't go in to detail here. There's plenty of literature out there on the various methods. 2 carabiners and the climbing rope- it doesn't get any quicker or cleaner than that. Best to still carry a cordalette though. They're worth their weight in gold if you get in to trouble.
If one partner is leading all the pitches, SOP at areas like El Potrero is to use a double length sewn runner cordelette-style to build your anchor. This gives you a good power point allowing the leader to quickly get back on lead without having to reconfigure the anchor as the 2 cow's tail method does. Cordalettes work too, but most people cut their cordalettes long enough to equalize multi-point trad anchors. This makes them way too long for two bolt anchors on long sport routes.
BTW, somewhere in your anchoring scheme, always be clipped in with the climbing rope. Even if you elect to use the cow's tail method, clove hitch yourself in somewhere as backup.
-Nubbler
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miuralover
Feb 2, 2004, 9:44 PM
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On multipitch sport I just clovehitch one bolt, then use a sling to the other. Of late I've started using a product from metolius that is like a daisy chain but each link is full strength. I think it's called the Personal Anchor or something like that, works well.
When I was in potrero I gave myself longer than normal length from the anchor in order to move from falling rocks, especially on the upper pitches of some of the harder multi-pitch routes. Something to think about.
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pbjosh
Feb 2, 2004, 9:50 PM
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In reply to: ps. i think its funny when people say don't use a daisy chain except for the end loop......i mean, isn't that the whole point of having a daisy chain?! :P
Not at all. Daisy chains are convenient and are great for aiding or for having a more comfortable length to lean out against. The intermediate loops are NOT meant for anchoring with, they are not full strength.
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crotch
Feb 2, 2004, 10:11 PM
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Hmmm. When hanging at a belay, I usually prefer to have a dynamic element in the anchor. No need to apply F2 loads to the anchor with static tie-ins. If there is even a remote chance that your harness would end up above the anchor point, you might want to tie in with the rope.
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alpnclmbr1
Feb 2, 2004, 10:38 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: ps. i think its funny when people say don't use a daisy chain except for the end loop......i mean, isn't that the whole point of having a daisy chain?! :P Not at all. Daisy chains are convenient and are great for aiding or for having a more comfortable length to lean out against. The intermediate loops are NOT meant for anchoring with, they are not full strength.
In reply to: Hmmm. When hanging at a belay, I usually prefer to have a dynamic element in the anchor. No need to apply F2 loads to the anchor with static tie-ins. If there is even a remote chance that your harness would end up above the anchor point, you might want to tie in with the rope.
This is why I like a combo of the rope and a daisy clipped in short to a convenient length.(one to each bolt, plus I clip the rope to at least two bolts for a third backup) I would rather bust a pocket rather than an anchor. (never have busted a pocket, even in some pretty bad falls)
With two cow tails or a 'llette you always have the risk of taking a static fall on the anchor. (you can connect to a 'llette power point with you're rope to get a dynamic component, but that gets ridiculously long.)
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hexitup
Feb 2, 2004, 10:40 PM
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For those of you who are recommending anchoring with either two slings, each of which is attached to one of the bolts, or one sling and the rope clove-hitched to one of the bolts, are you still creating a directional for bringing up the second, or are you belaying off of your harness? It seems that if you are going to create a directional, equalized anchor to belay through anyway, why not simply attach yourself to the power-point of this anchor instead of trying to attach carabiners for your personal attachment, and for the directional. Am I missing something here?
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ropeburn
Feb 2, 2004, 11:29 PM
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In reply to: " skimping" and " anchor" should never be used in the same sentence, regardless of the type of protection being used in said anchor. make it safe, your life depends on it.
Funny, this is exactly what I thought when first reading this threadname.
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leaverbiner
Feb 2, 2004, 11:33 PM
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If you don't trust a 2 (and usually 3) bolt anchor, why are you climbing the route in the first place! You are willing to put your life on the line by potentially falling on a single bolt, but are worried about equalizing a 2 to 3 bolt anchor? Just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. It seems more like making a very simple endeavor such as multi-pitch SPORT into a very complicated one! I understand and appreciate all of the detailed and intricate considerations that must go into setting a natural pro anchor, but as I said earlier, if you are worried about the bolts at a 2 and 3 bolt anchor, you really ought not be climbing on the route in the first place!
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fracture
Feb 3, 2004, 12:26 AM
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In reply to: If you don't trust a 2 (and usually 3) bolt anchor, why are you climbing the route in the first place! You are willing to put your life on the line by potentially falling on a single bolt, but are worried about equalizing a 2 to 3 bolt anchor? Just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.
Probably because you aren't thinking about your pro as a system. You aren't (usually) trusting your life to a single bolt when you fall, because you are backed up by the bolts lower on the pitch.
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iamthewallress
Feb 3, 2004, 12:33 AM
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So...you are hanging on two tensioned cows tails (I'm assuming this means girthed slings) attached to two seperate bolts and have the rope running through another one. If all 3 points of a bolted anchor blow or if both pieces of spectra and the bolt that the rope is running through blow, then I guess it's just your day to die.
Skimping on the anchor is when I get behind a boulder and belay with my ass because I don't expect my second to fall. It's probably pretty safe. The situation that you described sounded like it was as safe as I would ever worry about being on good bolts.
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fracture
Feb 3, 2004, 12:34 AM
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In reply to: This is why I like a combo of the rope and a daisy clipped in short to a convenient length.(one to each bolt, plus I clip the rope to at least two bolts for a third backup) I would rather bust a pocket rather than an anchor. (never have busted a pocket, even in some pretty bad falls)
Do you equalize the first clove hitching of the rope? (out of curiousity).
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fracture
Feb 3, 2004, 12:37 AM
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In reply to: So...you are hanging on two tensioned cows tails (I'm assuming this means girthed slings) attached to two seperate bolts and have the rope running through another one. If all 3 points of a bolted anchor blow or if both pieces of spectra and the bolt that the rope is running through blow, then I guess it's just your day to die. Skimping on the anchor is when I get behind a boulder and belay with my ass because I don't expect my second to fall. It's probably pretty safe. The situation that you described sounded like it was as safe as I would ever worry about being on good bolts.
Sounds rational.
I guess the answer is that of course a cordelette equalizing all 3 bolts is superior, but that the cow-tails "anchor" was good enough anyway.
Though I guess the cow-tails thing can be less convienent if you aren't swinging leads.
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mreardon
Feb 3, 2004, 1:09 AM
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In reply to: "skimping" and "anchor" should never be used in the same sentence
Neither should "anal" and "cavity"
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alpnclmbr1
Feb 3, 2004, 1:22 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: This is why I like a combo of the rope and a daisy clipped in short to a convenient length.(one to each bolt, plus I clip the rope to at least two bolts for a third backup) I would rather bust a pocket rather than an anchor. (never have busted a pocket, even in some pretty bad falls) Do you equalize the first clove hitching of the rope? (out of curiousity).
Yes
I usually use a fig 8 on a bight for the third
Careful about loose rock on the easy long routes at the potrero!
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speleodude
Nov 7, 2005, 10:16 PM
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I like this idea of pairing one static (cow's tail) and one dynamic (rope) link together, but why not use a section of dynamic rope to fashion your cow's tail? This is accepted practice amongst Cavers, who recognize that their cow's tails can and will be dynamically loaded on occasion. I lucked out when one of my 8mm twin ropes was 7' longer than the other, the remainder was just the right length for a cow's tail.
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adamd
Nov 7, 2005, 11:04 PM
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2 great looking bolts? I do several other things, but the magic x is frequently my go to.
about the "dynamic" cowstail...it doesn't seem like a piece of rope that short would be very dynamic at all.
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