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yay_chris
Feb 4, 2004, 8:28 PM
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I just don't get it.
If you don't hang on your rope for support, you've basically done it "free" right?
Why must it be a lead, like on sport or trad?
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jipstyle
Feb 4, 2004, 8:33 PM
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I'm guessing you've never taken the sharp end, or you wouldn't ask.
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ricardol
Feb 4, 2004, 8:34 PM
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T1 at most ..
-- ricardo
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ebelay
Feb 4, 2004, 8:36 PM
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You're absolutely right. You don't get it.
ER
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caughtinside
Feb 4, 2004, 8:36 PM
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Free top roping is still free climbing. You're not using the aid of gear to get up a route. However, it's not generally considered to be climbed free because of the near total security that a TR provides.
Lead it.
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dirtineye
Feb 4, 2004, 8:45 PM
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Good Grief.
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watchme
Feb 4, 2004, 8:45 PM
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Freeclimbing is a sport of style and rules. Most people consider a route freeclimbed only if it has been lead.
I have freed lots of routes on TR, but I would never claim the redpoint unless I lead it. That said, I still feel good about some of the routes that I've only managed a TR ascent.
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pawilkes
Feb 4, 2004, 8:51 PM
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it is a valid question but i would have to agree that leading a route is very different from top ropping the same route. i top rope all the time at the local crag because leading there is pretty much out of the question for all but the most intense climbers on many of the routes. setting gear or draws takes a lot of mental work and clearity of mind. i will give someone credit for top roping but more for leading a route. i guess i would rather climb with someone who can lead 5.10a's than someone who can TR a 5.11a but can't lead because they're to scared or whatever the reason maybe. i think they have a better understanding of the non-climbing aspect of technical climbing.
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climbaddic
Feb 4, 2004, 9:00 PM
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I can think of 2 reasons.
1) Outdoor routes are usually rated on leading grade and not Top Roping.
2) Leading adds 1 or 2 moves per bolt (Depending on draws are pre-placed or not). Adding 1 or 2 moves on slab climbing isn't big deal, but try some overhang route where you can barely hold on to the rock. It will be night and day difference. You will be pumped out much quicker.
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thurbad
Feb 4, 2004, 10:17 PM
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just because you lead a climb that someone else top ropes does not make you better than them. Climbing is climbing whether you are on lead, tr, bouldering, or in a tree. Either way you are still climbing.
If a person climbs a route without pulling on draws or any other artificial gear then they are freeclimbing.
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btayloriv
Feb 4, 2004, 10:19 PM
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dude-
this weekend, go trad lead a grade that you would consider "moderate" or "slightly challenging" on TR. That'll answer you faster and better than any reply can do. Let us know how it goes...
here's hoping for no snow and nice weather this weekend in the east!
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brianthew
Feb 4, 2004, 10:22 PM
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It's all in the words. Yes, top-roping is free climbing. Typically, though, a redpoint...free ascent, no falls....implies being on lead. But this as well is not always the case; there are many climbs that you have two choices: Top-rope, or free-solo. Take Devil's Lake, WI for instance. Many of the hard climbs there are unprotectable as they are on unbroken faces, and bolting is strictly prohibited.
It all comes down to what you judge your effort/accomplishment to be.
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olderic
Feb 4, 2004, 10:23 PM
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In reply to: just because you lead a climb that someone else top ropes does not make you better than them. Climbing is climbing whether you are on lead, tr, bouldering, or in a tree. Either way you are still climbing.
Better person - no, better climber - yes
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mandrake
Feb 4, 2004, 10:27 PM
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Hahaha! Good one! How's the T system work again? Is T1 a good troll or a bad (too obvious) one? Tgood!
Thinking about this further, why even bother TR'ing it? I mean, somehow you got to the top to set the TR, doesn't that count as "freeing" the route?
Or maybe you just bothered to show up at the base. Woody Allen said "90% of life is just showing up." Therefore, that counts as a 90% free ascent, right?
You're killin' me! I gotta get back to work.
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dingus
Feb 4, 2004, 10:49 PM
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The only difference between top roped free climbing and lead free climbing is the balls. Its all in the balls.
DMT
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cracklover
Feb 4, 2004, 10:57 PM
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In reply to: I just don't get it. If you don't hang on your rope for support, you've basically done it "free" right? Why must it be a lead, like on sport or trad?
You are partly right. The key thing to realize though, is that the term "freeing" a route is short for the phrase "Free Ascent." The second, (implied) word in that phrase is very important! "Ascent" means the route was climbed from bottom to top by the leader, while "Free" means that he or she did so without use of artificial aid (such as weighting the rope or gear). To understand why the "ascent" is the most important part to many people, remember that the roots of our sport are in mountaineering. There's no rope hanging down to you from on high. If you want one up there, you have to put it there yourself. That's what it means to be a leader, and to many people, that's a big part of what climbing is really about.
Cheers,
GO
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rckfreek
Feb 4, 2004, 11:07 PM
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This has generally been stated but, a clean climb on TR is much different than a clean climb on lead. The first reason is that there is a mental factor to get over. That aside you have to make the move of clipping the bolt and the rope. This as others have said adds a few moves per bolt. It has been stated that you must be at least a grade or so below your highest grade of climbing in order to lead a climb. This could be debated...however.
Tie in and lead!!!
Climb Hard
Rock Freek
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drysdan
Feb 4, 2004, 11:07 PM
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Well, shoot, if it's all the same, why even bother with the rope at all? Since there's no difference, just get up there and try one of your routes free solo! Sure saves a bundle on gear!
-T
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scubasnyder
Feb 4, 2004, 11:38 PM
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then do it without the rope
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vegastradguy
Feb 4, 2004, 11:44 PM
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good lord, free climbing is free climbing, regardless if you're leading or seconding.
if what everyone is saying is true, then who out there could ever claim a complete free ascent of anything bigger than a single pitch, unless they were free soloing or leading every pitch? i'd have to scratch of 90% of my climbing resume and put it under...partially free ascents....no thanks. i've free climbed everything on my list except my Moonlight Buttress and a couple of short practice aid pitches.
now, sport climbing may be...a little different in the eyes of other people, but, regardless if i climb a route on TR without pulling on a draw, i still consider it a free ascent, but not an onsight/flash...
another point, even if you fall once or three or 100 times, you've STILL free climbed it, you just havent done it clean.
in other words, folks, unless you're standing in aiders or pulling on gear, you're free climbing, regardless of which direction the rope is going or how many falls you take.
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curt
Feb 4, 2004, 11:53 PM
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If you top-rope a route and climb the entire thing without weighting the rope, you climbed the route free. Its just that simple. You didn't use any points of artificial aid in the ascent.
That's still not the same thing as leading the route free, of course.
Curt
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muncher
Feb 4, 2004, 11:56 PM
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Sure, swinging leads on a mult pitch is a little different but still, if you give up a lead because it looks to hard or scary for you and your partner does it then when you eventually top out you will know deep down that maybe you haven't really done the route, you may have done most of it but if you didn't lead the hardest or scariest pitch then maybe there is a question that you can ask yourself.
Most of the time though, if you and your partner share the leads then fine, you have both freed the route.
Top roping a sport climb on the other hand can only be called embarassing or soft really. It is far better for your climbing to lead something a few grades easier than to keep top roping routes way above your lead level.
Top rope takes away most of the mental aspects of climbing thus lowering the difficulty. It is not the same thing. Sure there are routes where it is either top rope or solo but generally speaking, just get on the sharp end, too much top rpoing will only hold you back when you try to lead again.
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rokshoxbkr19
Feb 4, 2004, 11:57 PM
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Well then, I guess Lynn Hill's free ascent of the Nose shouldn't be given any more respect than a bunh of topropes huh? I DON'T THINK SO.
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aznrockclimber82
Feb 4, 2004, 11:58 PM
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Ok Chris here's a tip. I'm sorry you got some negative feedback but in answer to your question, as long as you climbed it and got it down, you can work it more and more. If you topped it originally, using SOME help from the rope, at least you made it, right? Good. now just try it without using to much help from the rope, tell your belayer to give you 6 inches of slack, a small loop, as you climb. If he/she is a good belayer they can pull the slack as you begin to fall or if you need help on a hard move. Either way, just get to the top and like the fact you beat it, TR'ing, Leading, etc.....good luck bud
Gecko's Rule
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joe
Feb 5, 2004, 12:02 AM
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did any y'all catch that halftime show?
janet jackson's tittie like whoa.
4reals.
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