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don_pablo
Feb 17, 2004, 11:28 PM
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I'm getting outdoors more oftern now and am planning to do multi-pitch stuff later. My question is; what is the best way to tie the anchor to the harness? I've been using some webbing around the waistband, is this Kosher? I know not to use the haul loop but is there an easier way? thanks!
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vegastradguy
Feb 18, 2004, 12:00 AM
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im not exactly sure what you're asking here.
if you're asking how to clip into anchor so you are secure, there's a couple of different methods. perhaps easiest for a beginner is to girth hitch a daisy chain (or PAS by Metolius) to your harness with a locker clipped into the end of it. Make sure you girth through BOTH the leg and waist tie in points on your harness. Clip the locker to your anchor once you arrive (or build it). As a second point, tie the rope either in a clove hitch or a fig 8 on a bight and clip that to anchor as well. [as you get more experience, you'll figure out different ways to do this and stay safe...]
webbing around the waistband sounds wrong. if you're girth hitching a sling to you, make sure you girth it to both tie in points (leg and waist). if you're wrapping the webbing around you and clipping the ends into anchor...well, that's very wrong.
i hope this answers your question...if it doesnt, please try to describe what you're trying to do in more detail.
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mcfoley
Feb 18, 2004, 12:02 AM
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TROLLING PUNK!!!! GIVE ME A BREAK!!!
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tucsonalex
Feb 18, 2004, 12:11 AM
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Two slings girth hitched to your belay loop with a locking biner on the end of each will work fine. When climbing you can leave the slings on your belay loop and clip the biners to a gear loop.
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fourdeadpresidents
Feb 18, 2004, 12:52 AM
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Go get a good instructional book on the topic or have another experienced climber show you but for god sakes man don’t stick to the around the waist thing:!: Also lock into BOTH anchors redundancy, redundancy, redundancy.
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pipsqueekspire
Feb 18, 2004, 12:54 AM
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HANDS DOWN the safest way to conect to the anchor in is by using the big fat rope tied to your harness. Its the strongest and its a piece of gear you'll always have on you!!
If you want more than one piece of gear use a sling or daisy but always clip into the anchors directly with the rope! You can clip in loose with the rope and use a daisy for adjustment or you can clip in with a clove hitch as a nice adjustable point... either way the rope should be attached to the anchor. Its the only piece of gear I dont bother to back up at the belay. If I use slings I want two- same with daisys.
Most of the time I only use the rope and I clip in using a clove hitch only. Easy to adjust and bomber.
Let the good times roll....
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vegastradguy
Feb 18, 2004, 8:05 PM
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you should always have two points of contact on an anchor, even if you are clipping in with the rope. 2 cloves or a clove and a 8 on a bight is fine.
never clip in with a single point.
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pipsqueekspire
Feb 18, 2004, 8:35 PM
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Having a back up is fine- nothing wrong with it- but a 10mm rope tied in correctly to the anchor is the strongest method and anything else is just not a backup- if the rope fails at the master point so will any back up knot or sling. Its 100% safe to be tied into anchor with just the climbing rope with one knot. Afterall its all you have on the sharp end and at your harness... so why not trust it on the anchor too!?
-pip
Edited after rereading the above post
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vegastradguy
Feb 18, 2004, 11:25 PM
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maybe for an 8 on a bight, but not a clove hitch. a clove will slip at a little over 4kn of force on the line. i always clip in with 2 clove hitches....never just one. or sometimes a clove and an 8 as a backup to the clove, depending.
a fig 8 on a bight may be acceptable as a single contact point to anchor, since if it fails, you're screwed anyway...BUT its just good practice to keep 2 points clipped to anchor....especially for beginners.
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dynoguy
Feb 19, 2004, 12:03 AM
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I use a clove hitch in the rope to attach myself to the anchor. No extra equipment.
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ken
Feb 19, 2004, 1:07 AM
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In reply to: i always clip in with 2 clove hitches....never just one.
I consider myself to be a newbie and in no way an authority, but here is my to cents. Everything i have read and been show by experienced climbers calls for redundancy. Sure your rope is definately strong, but your only as strong as your weakest link. And with only one link to rely on your screwed in something happens, and accidents do happen. Just remember its your life you only get one and you can't climb without it.
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pipsqueekspire
Feb 19, 2004, 1:28 AM
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The clove hitch is an acceptable tie in by itself- According to the "Use and Abuse of the Clove Hitch" by SP Parker the clove tests as stronger than a bowline or about the same as the fig. 8 knot but only IF the hitch is tied with the load side of the clove against the spine of a biner. If the clove load is tied on the non spine side the biner fails before the knot. If you cant tie this correctly you should stick to the fig 8.
Clove tests at 63-77% of rope strength
Bowline tests at 60%
Fig 8 tests at 75-80%
No need to back up that knot on your harness... right? so no need to back up that hitch on the anchor since they are about the same strength!
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holdplease2
Feb 19, 2004, 2:17 AM
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a clove hitch is nice because you can "feather" the knot to bring yourself closer to the anchor or move far from it without having a bunch of slack in the system. This is nice if you have to look over the edge of a ledge at your belayer or move around to scope the next part of the pitch.
I like to backup the clove hitch with a figure 8 on a bight. As with many backups, they are there not (just) because your first system might fail but also because you might make a mistake...maybe you forget to lock the locker that the clove hitch is on. Maybe the clove hitch isn't tight enough and becomes loose. Whatever...a backup is my preference, though some disagree.
SometimesI just use separate runners to clip in, it depends.
-Kate.
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sfclimber
Feb 20, 2004, 2:03 AM
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In reply to: ...As with many backups, they are there not (just) because your first system might fail but also because you might make a mistake...maybe you forget to lock the locker that the clove hitch is on. Maybe the clove hitch isn't tight enough and becomes loose.
Excellent point! We often place so much faith in our gear that we forget about our own human weaknesses. Two tie in points are always better than one.
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pipsqueekspire
Feb 20, 2004, 7:07 AM
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I totally agree that two is safer than one for the human error factor. BUT just double check your master point anchor tie in every time you come to a belay as you would a harness at the start or a knot or a locking biner... all of which have the same end result... death... Just wondering why you should clip into an anchor at more than one place if you rely on so many other single points in the system. The main clip in should be your rope at the master point... double check it then call it good because everything else just gets in the way and does not add strength.
I find it to be a little confusing when I am on a multi pitch anchor and I cant tell what is going on... this daisy leads here and that one is there then my rope is over there and then maybe a haul line is back here then.... and thats just ONE person.... just wait until you bring up the second!
To solve this problem I always just use the rope at at master point and tuck everything else away or hang it off to the side. It makes flaking ropes and belaying so much easier. No daisys hanging off my harness or around my waist... no slings that are always too short or too long.... just a clove hitch on a locker or two opposed biners double check it and Im done. Fastest- stongest and most adjustable method of clipping in to an anchor.
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vegastradguy
Feb 20, 2004, 7:16 AM
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sure, and then when you unclip your partner from the powerpoint for his lead, and then suddenly, oh, you just unclipped yourself! this is why you clip in with two points.
like i said earlier, as one gets more experience, they can learn the best way to clip in for themselves (which you have obviously done), however, as a BEGINNER, it is only prudent to always have (at least) 2 points on the wall. dont forget thats who you're giving advice to...not someone who has plenty of experience and knows exactly what they're doing.
hell, i have plenty of multi experience, and i'd never clip in with anything less than two...what if my partner unclips one of my points by accident? its never happened, but it could.
oh, and maybe you need to simplify your anchors if you cant tell whats going on with only two clip in points for yourself and two others for your partner...... :roll:
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jebel_andi
Feb 20, 2004, 7:25 AM
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clove hitch all the way, simple and safe
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jebel_andi
Feb 20, 2004, 7:27 AM
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clove hitch all the way, simple and safe
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squish
Feb 20, 2004, 7:48 AM
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In reply to: As with many backups, they are there not (just) because your first system might fail but also because you might make a mistake...maybe you forget to lock the locker that the clove hitch is on. Maybe the clove hitch isn't tight enough and becomes loose. Whatever...a backup is my preference, though some disagree.
Totally agree with this. I often use a clove hitch and a daisy chain, myself.
I like the idea of a secondary connection not only for backup, but also for convenience. If I need to move around or untie from the rope, escape, untangle the spaghetti, etc... It's nice to be already tied in and not have to worry about it.
I don't even tend to really think of it as a "backup," like one might say "if this one fails..." but rather as two equally important points of connection. I can untie from either one if need be, and still remain safe for the moment.
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kletterfreak
Feb 20, 2004, 9:25 AM
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Hi, All!
If that's true, why did my AMGA guide teach me to anchor in with a clove?
Yeah, I have only been climbing for 3 years, but it has been my limited experience that simple systems are actually safer. Being able to 'see' the anchor I think has extreme advantages. Also, I find its really easy to do with one hand, a necessity as you must keep your partner on belay as she (or me) ascends over the edge.
I would also like to add that a second point, requires yet another piece of gear. And as I am discovering, I usually wind up needing exactly the piece I left below. The clove hitch, by contrast, requires only a knot in the rope, which you already have.
I do admit though, now that someone actually suggested using a second point, I am thinking about using it. But I still want to use a clove, for the above mentioned reasons. What I suppose would be good is if each person carried a permanent leash girth hitched to the 2 hard points of the harness, the other end with a locker. I suppose as the 2nd comes up, she can clip herself in to the shelf or the rings (if there) directly. hmm, but that seems to me like it could get in the way of the climber.
Wanna hear a funny? I am living in Germany right now, Bavaria (which is really a different country). Everyone here seems to be apeshit over climbing. They also seem to be way less concerned with safety than Americans. They just go. Anyway, amongst the horrifyingly unsafe practices they employ, I've noticed a good percentage use a simple overhand to tie into the harness. To which they retorted that Americans are 'too safe'.
Well, I was recently at the gunks with a guide on Disney World and he exclaimed wryly, yeah, we call that the European Death Knot!!! I couldn't stop laughing.
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vegastradguy
Feb 20, 2004, 3:13 PM
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kletter- use two cloves. it doesnt require any extra gear. clip into powerpoint with one, and one of your pieces with the other.
i'm actually suprised an AMGA guide would only suggest one point to anchor....i have a friend whos AMGA certified and he always insists on two points to the wall.
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kletterfreak
Feb 20, 2004, 3:38 PM
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Don't get me wrong, I love my AMGA guide. I think he's awesome. And But, yeah, he always used just 1 hitch. I can understand it though. Too many knots and everything is just a mess to manage... and I think thats more dangerous.
Perhaps, 2 cloves would help prevent an accident in the case your partner unclips the wrong one.
But, imagine the situation, you're both up there and your second reaches to unclip his clove. He instead unclips yours. Whats to stop him or her from accidentally unhitching the other? He has to unhitch 2 cloves too!
Also, I think my guide would say (but dont quote me) hitching in twice to one point of failure is not sensical if you take the philosophy that you should have a back up. Besides the problem of unhitching your neighbor, if the vital anchor goes, so will you (2 cloves and all).
Then again, I guess for that to happen the 3-way anchor (and more unlikely, the rings) would have to tear out of the rock! I dunno. hm. Now I'm puzzled.
What's wrong about using a sling? (Besides being a pain in the ass!)
Peace Out
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alpiner
Feb 20, 2004, 4:37 PM
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In reply to: The clove hitch is an acceptable tie in by itself- According to the "Use and Abuse of the Clove Hitch" by SP Parker
Where is this study published? The limited data you posted conflicts with many other tests.
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pipsqueekspire
Feb 20, 2004, 6:03 PM
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I dont know where it was orginally published but it came with a large packet of materials for an AMGA course... it was all photocopied and had no bibliography.
The study says it was designed to check the original military tests that say the clove hitch slips at 250-1000lbs. SP Parker and Bluewater found this not to be true. The clove does move a little around 1400 lbs but none of the diameters tested moved more than 1/4 inch. The AMGA now suggests that no back up knot is needed with the clove.
Take it or leave it... I understand the concerns for wanting a beginner to use a back up or have two points of contact but my feeling is it much easier to only have one point. It makes the anchor clear and simple thus making it difficult to accidently unclip yourself or your partner since you can see who is who.
I trust a new multi pitch climber knows how to tie into their harness- and Ill check them anyway and they will check me. I teach them how to tie into an anchor and again we'll double check before one of us takes off on lead.
So my sugestion is to teach a beginner how to do it once safely and simply rather than to teach them that this or that needs to be backed up only to 'unteach' that in the future or to tell them 'Im having you do this now because I dont trust you with yourself but later you can do it my way'
I am an advocate of K.I.S.S. in climbing. Especially when it come to anchors.
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dirtineye
Feb 20, 2004, 6:28 PM
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Well let's see now, AMGA advocating only one connection to anchor (according to pipsqueaksspire), other climber points out that if partner unclips you accidentally then down you may go... Kinda makes you go, Hmmmmm.
I'd just have to see where the AMGA is advocating one point tie in to the anchor. I have no problem believeing that individual guides may advocate something not totally accepted by the organization, because many AMGA guides are grandfathered in or get in by having equivalent experience.
On the other hand, the AMGA manual I have gives the figure 8 (not the flemish bend or rewoven 8 but the 8 version of the EDK) as a rappel rope joining knot, and this knot is known to be BAD, so the AMGA is not the final authority on all things climbing.
All you beginners reading this, two slings or daisys girth hitched to your belay loop on with lockers connected to two different points is pretty standard for how to anchor yourself on a multi pitch climb.
I get the impression the original poster was tieing the belayer to something on the groudn for a top rope belay, if that is right, then still, drop the webbing around the waist like everyone else said and just clip it into your belay loop with a locker.
As far as KISS, how S is it to only have one tie in point and watch your partner mistakenly unclip it? Two anchor tie ins gives you redundancy and thus an extra safety margin.
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