|
|
|
|
ell
Feb 18, 2004, 11:21 PM
Post #1 of 47
(2693 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 23, 2003
Posts: 65
|
I'm currently caught in the middle of a bit of an argument. My friend and I were told about a new crag by its developer. We went there while the developer and his cousin were there and gave me drills, glue and the use of his drill to bolt a line.
A few metres from my line there was a crack line that looked somewhat interesting and the developer's cousin, V, said that she wanted to climb it and, thus, get the first ascent. She attempts it and backs off.
A week or two later my friend and I go to New Zealand for a couple of months for some climbing. She visited the crag one more time, but I don't know if she attempted the crack. The she also goes to New Zealand (separately from us).
We come back about 3 months later and my friend climbs the crack line and claims the First Ascent. Last night I get an angry email from V expressing her annoyance at climbing the crack line.
So the questions are:
Can you "reserve" a trad project?
Was what my friend did wrong/unethical?
Has V been wronged?
|
|
|
|
|
sspssp
Feb 18, 2004, 11:33 PM
Post #2 of 47
(2693 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 2, 2003
Posts: 1731
|
First off, I don't think there is a "right or wrong." Good or bad ettiquette would probably be closer.
Generally, I wouldn't think that a trad line can be "reserved." However, if someone spent a lot of effort cleaning a line, it might be polite to give them a reasonable chance at the first ascent. Second, if you only knew about the location of the crag because a small group of developers took you there and the developers specifically told you that there were certain lines they were attempting, I would say it would be polite to respect that.
If climbers weren't so caught up in first ascents (read egos), these tensions wouldn't come up. It would be fine with me if guide books never mentioned who the first ascent was.
|
|
|
|
|
skiclimb
Feb 19, 2004, 2:17 AM
Post #3 of 47
(2693 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 11, 2004
Posts: 1938
|
Well I probably climbed it ten years before you guys...but hey like most of my trad first ascents sombody else may claim them since i never said much about them...I only have claimed a couple I felt were semi noteworthy...names suck..just climb
|
|
|
|
|
iamthewallress
Feb 19, 2004, 2:28 AM
Post #4 of 47
(2693 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 2, 2003
Posts: 2463
|
If you know that something is a friend's project and it wouldn't have been a project of yours were you not alerted to it by your friend, then I'd say you're not being that great of a friend if you go do it anyway.
This happened to me once, and I learned something about sharing my excitement for a project in advance of completing it. It permenantly colored my opinion about that person. Something about the mystery of whether or not something will be doable is lost once you have the information that a route has been climbed.
|
|
|
|
|
deleted
Deleted
Feb 19, 2004, 2:35 AM
Post #5 of 47
(2693 views)
Shortcut
Registered:
Posts:
|
she should quit whining and find a new crack to climb. there are plenty of them out there. be happy that someone freed it.
|
|
|
|
|
okinawatricam
Feb 19, 2004, 3:31 AM
Post #6 of 47
(2693 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 23, 2003
Posts: 420
|
Three months on a natural line, oh well sounds like fair game.
|
|
|
|
|
angry
Feb 19, 2004, 4:06 AM
Post #7 of 47
(2693 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 22, 2003
Posts: 8405
|
I've freed other stuff and watched while others freed my "project" BFD, projects are masturbation, if you can climb it, climb it. Imagine you are at the weight room trying to lift a weight too heavy for you. A stronger guy comes over and lifts it. Are you pissed, cause he's stronger than you or cause you are weaker than him? That barbell was just as much your "proj" as any climb. See how stooopid this whole idea is.
|
|
|
|
|
andypro
Feb 19, 2004, 4:31 AM
Post #8 of 47
(2693 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 23, 2003
Posts: 1077
|
This is about as rediculous as redpoint vs. pinkpoint vs. brownpoint etc, or cheap cams, or bolting at all or not, or...or..or...
First of all...she tried it and backed off. Then left it for 3 months. We've ehard nothing of a second attempt or whatever..but still..three months. What did she expect? People werent gonna climb it becuase she wanted to? Even though she was in a different country?
Sounds like she wants her name in lights. If it's that important, or makes her think sh'es a better climber, or just looking to spray...then whatever. Let her have the "first ascent". I think silliness like this just cheapens the whole thing.
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Feb 19, 2004, 4:41 AM
Post #9 of 47
(2693 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
In reply to: I'm currently caught in the middle of a bit of an argument. My friend and I were told about a new crag by its developer. A few metres from my line there was a crack line that looked somewhat interesting and the developer's cousin, V, said that she wanted to climb it and, thus, get the first ascent. She attempts it and backs off. We come back about 3 months later and my friend climbs the crack line and claims the First Ascent. Last night I get an angry email from V expressing her annoyance at climbing the crack line. So the questions are: Can you "reserve" a trad project? Was what my friend did wrong/unethical? Has V been wronged?
Let's review...
You were turned onto a new area by the developers. Wile there you learned of an on-going FA attempt by one of those developers.
Some period of time later your friend nabbed the line. A line he would not have been privy without the kindness of the developer.
1. Yes, you can certainly reserve a trad project. It's based upon mutual respect. Most climbing areas have some sense of this to one extent or another, or certainly a group of locals there will. They respect one another's projects. It's like claim jumping in the gold rush days, without the hangings of course.
But you also have anti-socials, rivalries and teenagers, none of whom give a damn about the projects of others. They don't respect trad reservations.
2. Depends upon the circumstances. The cousin certainly seems to think so, eh? How would you feel, how would your friend feel, if the roles were reversed?
3. Disrespected, certainly. Wronged? Sounded too casual and unintended to be wronged. But you and your friend both dissed her for sure.
I've had one or three routes or projects nabbed after sharing them with various souls. The best advice is to not tell anyone about anything they don't need to know.
DMT
|
|
|
|
|
dirtineye
Feb 19, 2004, 4:47 AM
Post #10 of 47
(2693 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 29, 2003
Posts: 5590
|
Since the developer took you to a place you never would have known about otherwise, and you knew someone else was working that crack, you knew it meant something to her, you could have waited.
What you did was in bad taste given the circumstances. They let you in on their special place and you shat upon it.
I do FAs with several people, and I can tell you that scarfing a project is bad form among friends. When partner A says "That line is one I'm doing with joe blow.", if you value his friendship you say OK and wait for them to do it. It's just being polite.
Besides, I'll bet there were other routes you could have done instead without pissing off the people that took you to this place, right?
|
|
|
|
|
skiclimb
Feb 19, 2004, 4:51 AM
Post #11 of 47
(2693 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 11, 2004
Posts: 1938
|
The best advice is not to worry about things that don't involve getting paid or laid...
FAs rarely involve either...
Just climb...stupid to stop others from climbing because you suck to bad to get it done yourself...I remember one project I worked for a few hours and then looked for somebody else to send it cause i thought it was pretty cool...found someone they did it..i was as happy as could be for finding it and sharing it with somebody good enough...
|
|
|
|
|
couloir
Feb 19, 2004, 5:21 AM
Post #12 of 47
(2693 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 4, 2001
Posts: 304
|
Sounds to me like there was no wrong done. If she wanted the first ascent bad enough she would have spent more time on it. And if she spent months on it, it's definitely open game. No one owns the rock, and those that do don't deserve to be on the rock.
|
|
|
|
|
nagatana
Feb 19, 2004, 5:54 AM
Post #13 of 47
(2693 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 28, 2003
Posts: 425
|
When I read this, I immediately thought of the brutal, no holds barred race to the South Pole. And while those men disregarded reservations to first rights, they were also after fame.
The only ethics here are fuck first ascents.
If FAs were meaningless to your friend, he would've patiently waited and climbed the route after V, or he would've climbed and not claimed the first ascent. However from what's here, he did claim that first ascent, disregarding a reservation. No, V's not in the clear herself for hogging a route for three months, but she's also tied to the developer (landowner?).
If you wanna play the first ascent game, ask yourself if you're going to behave like a gentleman or a cutthroat pirate in this tangled web.
|
|
|
|
|
hosh
Feb 19, 2004, 7:23 AM
Post #14 of 47
(2693 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 15, 2003
Posts: 1662
|
I like first ascents. Every one of the climbs I've ever done was once a first ascent for me. I never really care who's climbed a line before me, just as long as I can send it clean. I guess it'd be lame to get side-lined like that, but who really cares? I guess only people who really care about things like that would say yes to that question. First ascents are cool, but then again, so is climbing. And so is buying new gear... :D
|
|
|
|
|
coldclimb
Feb 19, 2004, 7:48 AM
Post #15 of 47
(2693 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 14, 2002
Posts: 6909
|
I hereby reserve this crack as my own project. You may not climb it!
I think the idea of reserving projects is ridiculous. The route goes to whoever sends it first. You have no right to deny someone else the FA just because you want it, and might get it eventually.
But then again, I personally am the kind of guy who would climb it, and then walk off into the hills without leaving my name. Doesn't matter as much to me as it does for others. :?
|
|
|
|
|
okinawatricam
Feb 19, 2004, 7:55 AM
Post #16 of 47
(2693 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 23, 2003
Posts: 420
|
I have put up several routes. In some cases, I bolt the route, and let others have the honors. What the diference.
When it comes to crack climbs, first come first serve.
|
|
|
|
|
kaczoron
Feb 19, 2004, 8:35 AM
Post #17 of 47
(2693 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 11, 2004
Posts: 68
|
Hey,
If you are talking about the "V" I think you are then I can understand that she was upset, since there is that thing about Morna Pt. as well, but 3 months? I thought she only went for 3 weeks?
If you were there when she said she wanted to work it for herself as a project, you should have let her, it would be the nice thing to do. If you climbed it without her knowing it couldn't have bothered her. But telling her? That is just asking for trouble. Lets all play nice....
Nick
P.S. If it's a different "V" sorry i said anything.
|
|
|
|
|
micahmcguire
Feb 19, 2004, 8:40 AM
Post #18 of 47
(2693 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 18, 2002
Posts: 889
|
no, no, and no. If V couldn't hack it before "X" could, V's loss
|
|
|
|
|
cantbuymefriends
Feb 19, 2004, 12:00 PM
Post #19 of 47
(2693 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 28, 2003
Posts: 670
|
In reply to: Since the developer took you to a place you never would have known about otherwise, and you knew someone else was working that crack, you knew it meant something to her, you could have waited.
If you only visit the crag once in 3 months, are you really working the route then?
|
|
|
|
|
marcel
Feb 19, 2004, 2:20 PM
Post #20 of 47
(2693 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 30, 2002
Posts: 523
|
It sounds to me that V has some growing up to do! Or she needs to get a life.
|
|
|
|
|
voriand
Feb 19, 2004, 2:24 PM
Post #21 of 47
(2693 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 10, 2003
Posts: 73
|
Who cares. The whole idea of someone being selfish and so full of them self to give them the right to claim something that does not belong to them is not ethical at all. (and taking 3 months to boot)
It is like the south pole comment. There was no reservations or claims on who could do it. The first skilled and able party to do it wins. Simple as that.
Personnally I could give a rats A.. who the FA party was. The rock line was there before me and will be still there after I am gone.
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Feb 19, 2004, 3:05 PM
Post #22 of 47
(2693 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
V cares and so does the original poster. He cared enough to start the thread. I guess everyone who responded also cares to some extent, or they wouldn't have bothered. I guess you care too.
In reply to: It is like the south pole comment. There was no reservations or claims on who could do it. The first skilled and able party to do it wins. Simple as that.
Well it isn't that simple and you don't get to decide frankly. What if Scott was the only person who even knew the South Pole existed? And he privately shared that fact with Amundson and specifically told the Norweigan polar explorer that he, Scott, intended to be the first man to stand there. And Amundson goes off and skunks him on his own line.
Then we would have a more useful comparison.
In reply to: Personnally I could give a rats A.. who the FA party was. The rock line was there before me and will be still there after I am gone.
Fine. How does one "give a rat's ass" anyway?
I guess we'll hear this over and over... from people who don't establish new lines. And perhaps that is for the best. But if you go out and work to establish 20 or 30 o 50 routes of various kinds, and you invest your time and energy into these projects as a major focus of your climbing, you may begin to understand that it isn't just an Ego-Flare that brings on these situations.
Establishing new routes is hard and it takes a specil kind of magic to be good at it and do it on a regular basis (magic I sadly possess very little of). Many climbers, even talented, strong and experienced climbers, falter when they get on unknown territory beyond the scope of a guidebook.
I know a few climbers here in NorCal who invest the majority of their climbing time in new routes. Some of these routes they will tell you about. Others they keep to themselves and their friends. The thing is... when you invest this sort of energy into a thing, and put your soul into it as well, concepts such as integrity and honor begin to take on a more meaningful context.
These two guys certainly dissed V. If you don't see that then you are blind. And you just don't understand. If I showed you my new area and pointed out a line I intended to send and you went behind my back and sent it first... our friendship would be at an end. Permanently. And I would be on perpetual prowl to do the same to you.
So some day you're leading the 2nd pitch of your new trad line. As you pull up onto the belay ledge, surprise, you find a brown steamer staring you in the eye. Guess you shouldn't have been bragging in the bar last night, eh?
Don't step in that shit Leroy! Best not to go there in the first place.
Respect. So many of our "problems" in this sport come down to a lack of respect and this thread certainly highlights it.
DMT
|
|
|
|
|
voriand
Feb 19, 2004, 3:30 PM
Post #23 of 47
(2693 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 10, 2003
Posts: 73
|
In reply to: Respect. So many of our "problems" in this sport come down to a lack of respect and this thread certainly highlights it.
Point is this, no one on this earth so damn special that they can claim a piece of public land for themselves so they can write their name down in some guidebook.
Pride is not a virtue.
I am willing to bet Sharma did not put a "DO NOT CLIMB MY PROJECT UNTIL IT DO IT FIRST" sign when he did Realization.
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Feb 19, 2004, 3:38 PM
Post #24 of 47
(2693 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
In reply to: Point is this, no one on this earth so damn special that they can claim a piece of public land for themselves so they can write their name down in some guidebook. Pride is not a virtue.
This is a prime example of the people who totally lack respect and gratitude for the folks who establish the lines that get climbed.
FA parties would do well to never ever share anything with this sort.
DMT
|
|
|
|
|
mreardon
Feb 19, 2004, 3:40 PM
Post #25 of 47
(2693 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 17, 2002
Posts: 1337
|
If it's a crack and it's there, then climb it. If it's a route with bolts and marked as a project, then courtesy dictates that you ask first.
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
