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bradhill
Mar 27, 2002, 5:17 PM
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I had my first unplanned bivy in real conditions this summer. 10 hours in a 4' diameter ice cave in a bergschrund in Alaska while 8" of snow fell, the ceiling melted and dripped on us and spindrift blew in. Not the most enjoyable time, but I learned a few things.
I now always carry a butt-sized chunk of blue foam to sit on (rope goes behind your back), a pair of handwarmers, two big garbage bags or a space blanket and a windstopper balaclava. One of the guys I was with took the ace bandage from his medkit and wrapped it around his face like a mummy, which I thought was a neat trick.
What are you never without when a bivy might be needed (but you're not planning on it)? What tricks do you have for keeping warm and making it bearable?
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beyond_gravity
Mar 27, 2002, 5:26 PM
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Last summer i was climbing the north face of Mt. Temple in banff when a storm blew it. The best thing i found was to empty the contence of my pack into a garbage bag (to keep it dry) and stick my lower body into my pack. I put on my fleese and goretex and sat behind a boulder for 9 hours. I went out a bought a Micro Bivy from mec, it only weight like 500g and is supercompact. a bivy will never be comfortable, the way I see it is, if I can get off alive/unhurt, i'm happy
Sleep Tight,
Jeremy
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wallhammer
Mar 28, 2002, 3:32 AM
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dont forget the down booties. everyone makes fun of mine and then the next trip out i notice that they are sporting a pair. also dont get the re-usable hand warmers. too much bulk /weight, and dont stay warm as long as the small disposables. also use one of the plastic garbage sacks as a ceiling liner with one corner dropping low to create a water channel.(dont cover your vent hole)
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apollodorus
Mar 28, 2002, 5:24 AM
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My first bivvy was in shorts and a tee-shirt at the top of the Royal Arches in early May. I spent half the night shivering, and the other half trying to find firewood. My partner slept unbudged in a space tent mylar thing. Wouldn't have missed it for the world.
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mountrobson
Apr 4, 2002, 4:08 PM
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I've had the good fortune to bivy everywhere from Red Rocks in December(halfway up Epinephrine) to EF Mt. Patterson and the Bugs in Canada. Maybe I'm just a slow climber!! Anyway, these are the things I always have on a Grade IV or greater climb:
* a space blanket
* a pair of mega-warm double wool mittens
* a plastic trash sack (see post above)
* a small stash of papers and some Drum!!!
Also, depending on the particular climb, conditions, weather, partner, etc I might also bring:
* an extra lightweight capliene top
* my down jacket (low weight, high warmth!)
* a couple of chemical hand warmers
I know that alot of climbers avoid biving like the plague, but I've kinda learned to enjoy the misery! As far as how to make it "warm and bearable"...well, it's really hard to have a warm, alpine bivy! But I think one's frame of mind can make it not only bearable, but enjoyable. I kind of link my experieces to all the old climbers who bivied on places like the Eiger NF or Grandes Jorasses. My partner and I usually pass the time by singing songs to each other, smoking Drum, and telling much exaggrated tales of previous climbs! There's nothing quite like the view of the sun's first light in the morning! Good luck!
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agrauch
Apr 16, 2002, 3:19 AM
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Even space blankets are super light and made of a high-tech, reflective material, they SUCK for exposed alpine bivies. High winds and sharp rocks will shred a space blanket before you know it.
The worst night of my life was spent in a mid-October snow storm high on the Middle Teton huddling under the fragments of a space blanket.
Get a light bivy sack, something less than a pound. You might actually find yourself looking for bivies.
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bigfish03
Apr 16, 2002, 4:00 AM
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ok, i know this is gonna sound stupid to yall, but what in the heck is a bivy?
the uninformed floyder
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krustyklimber
Apr 16, 2002, 4:16 AM
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O.K. I had to go get my "survival bag" out of my pack. It contains:
1 disposable lighter (I have one in my pack)
1 sierra cup (you gotta have something to heat up water in)
3 9hr candles
6 lightning bugs (little sawdust and wax pellets, for fire starters, or one will heat up a cup of water)
1 film bottle with cotton balls dipped in vaseline (last ditch fire starter)
5 packs of apple cider mix (one cup each)
4 packs of Cup of Soup mix (one cup each)
4 packs oatmeal mix
1 chocolate bar
1 space blanket
1 plastic tube shelter
2 garbage bags
4 hand warmers (small ones)
1 roll orange survey ribbon (so you don't go in circles, and to make your camp visible from the air if needed)
1 Sharpie pen to make notes on the ribbon (direction of travel, injuries, number in party ect.)
I use my pack as a sleeping pad, and also use a garbage bag for my stuff, I get into the pack with the space blanket to protect it from tearing, and then slide the tube shelter over all of it.
It seems like alot (1.3pounds), and I would carry a little less but my friends don't see it the same way, so I've got a bit to cover them food wise. And I do live in western Washington where it is very wet and the weather can change very quickly, so if fire seems a little overdone, that's why.
I've made so many "unplanned" bivies between fishing, hiking and climbing, because I'm so well set up to, that my wife wouldn't even think of calling rescuers 'til I was at least three days overdue.
I bivy in style, why suffer needlessly, when there may be a "BETTER WAY"!
Jeff
[ This Message was edited by: krustyklimber on 2002-04-15 21:26 ]
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peas
Apr 16, 2002, 4:41 AM
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hey bigfish03
bivy is short for bivouac, which the dictionary defines as a temporary camp without tents or other cover, which pretty much fits with most people's usage.
[ This Message was edited by: peas on 2002-04-15 22:02 ]
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bradhill
Apr 16, 2002, 3:49 PM
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Bivouac is French for "suffering".
Krusty, you seem like a vindication of Choinard's quote, "If you take bivy gear, you will use it." Your kit sounds good for backpacking, John Muir style, but a bit much for alpine climbing.
To me, a bivy is something that happens when for some reason I *can't* keep moving, due to exhaustion or (usually) it being unsafe to move after dark through crevasses or on technical terrain. If I'm somewhere where there's wood to burn, chances are good I can keep moving.
One thing I would add is, if you're near a city at all, a tiny radio. Being able to listen to music makes the time pass a lot quicker. Worth the weight, IMHO.
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krustyklimber
Apr 17, 2002, 1:55 AM
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You've got me there, haven't you Brad! The woods here are very thick though, and it can get dark an hour before it does out on the crag.
Most of my bivies, I will admit have been while fishing, we once waited out a two day storm on a small island, because trying to make the mainland would have been suicide.
I generally don't wait until I can't go any further, I feel it takes away to much of the control, about which options to utilize.
Besides you did ask what we carried for comfort, and I know how to be comfortable if nothing else.
Jeff
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passthepitonspete
Apr 17, 2002, 2:41 AM
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I've been doing a few thirty-plus-hour caving trips lately while exploring and surveying in Roppel Cave, and we've sometimes been doing a short "micro bivi".
I've made up a space blanket "taco" - two space blankets duct-taped together on three sides like a sleeping bag. I used to bring along a couple small chunks of closed cell foam, one for my hips, the other for my shoulders, but lately I've opted for a 3/4 length ultralight Thermarest.
If you take the Thermarest, and roll it and squeeze out the air multiple times (there is a technique to this...) then put it into a plastic bag and wrap the bag super-tight with clear plastic packing tape, it is amazing how small the thing can become, yet how comfortable it is to sleep on.
Throw in a tube scarf, balaclava and some chemical handwarmers, then I lie on my side with my hip holding up the taco, and I leave my carbide lamp burning [it's mounted on my helmet]. Before long, I'm sawing pitons.
This setup wouldn't work in the mountains under windy conditions - definitely for the cave only.
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graniteboy
Apr 17, 2002, 3:41 AM
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Brad, Buddy;
here's a thing or 2 to think about while bivvying in bergschrunds (or hopefully, B4 U decide to do so). In 1996, I was coming down from "soloing" on Denali (If soloing can be said to be possible when there are a hundred climbers all around you on the glacier). Steve Schneider and Wally and these other three guys decided they "had to get back" to Talkeetna. RIGHT NOW. They headed off downhill in bad conditions. They got to windy corner (now, geeee, you don't suppose thay call it that 4 a reason, do you??) where thet were forced into a bergschrund/crevasse bivvy due to extremely hi winds. That nite, the three guys who were in one crevasse got buried alive by small slides dropping in on them. One of them had clawed so hard trying to get out that he wore his fingers down to the bone. Steve and Wally lucked out, and didn't get killed. All three of the others died.
Now, what's the moral to the story regarding bivying in bergschrunds??
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jtcronk
Apr 27, 2002, 5:13 AM
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I always carry a belay jacket with when climbing (alpine stuff) even fairly short routes. This comes in handy when bivying. If you stash a bivy sack in your pack, along with the foam back pad from your pack's suspension (if you have one....), you can actually get fairly comfy. I've spent a few nights, even intentionally, with just a PrimaLoft jacket and my Bibler BigWall. Other than that, you should always have a stove for brewing. And if it still sucks too bad, fire up the headlamp and keep on climbing....
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bradhill
Apr 28, 2002, 2:46 AM
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Graniteboy, I think the moral in general is that a bivouac is going to expose you to all sorts of objective hazard for longer than you really want. Exposure to weather and wind can be just as deadly as an avalanche. The only way to live as an alpine climber is to be aware of the many many things that can kill you and try to balance your risks as appropriate to each situation. Sometimes you still lose. Thanks for one more piece of information to file away for later use!
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graniteboy
May 8, 2002, 11:43 PM
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OK, Brad;
I generally agree that bivying is a tough thing that just happens. But i think you missed a part of the point I was trying to make.
The moral is really about the idea that we should have a clue as to the environment we're getting ourselves into, and have a clue as to how to avoid being killed when you have to bivy.
SO:
1)The Schneider et al episode was completely avoidable and unnecessary. 3 people died. I watched NPS pull their frozen corpses out. If they had waited 24 hours, all would have been fine. The weather rept called for decreasing winds the next day. All the more experienced alpinists at 14K camp (myself included) said "no go" to descent that day...
2)Bivying in a bergschrund in general is not a great idea. They're more active than most crevasses. A regular crevasse would have been a better choice, as they're generally not exposed to crap falling in from above.
The idea that objective hazards just "happen" is one that should always be tempered by the knowledge that there is always a judgement aspect to objective hazards.
Just a bit of advice from a guy who has been around the block a few thousand times.....
Be safe, live long, pull hard, help others, bivy warm.
Granite.
[ This Message was edited by: graniteboy on 2002-05-08 16:50 ]
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wallhammer
May 9, 2002, 1:19 AM
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hind sight is always 20/20. and if no one else rings your bell, ring it yourself
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badger
Jun 10, 2002, 4:32 AM
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I would recommend taking a tiny sleeping bag and a bivy sack if you're in cold country. Marmot makes a 1.5 lb. sleeping bag for 30 degrees, and OR's gore-tex bivy is about the same. Both together only take up about 1/3 of a day pack, and even though they are really expensive (about $500 for the set) they can save your life... A down jacket is very small (some stuff into their own pocket) and can add enough insulation to make a -20 night comfy. I also use my gore-tex shell as a foot box, since my feet are usually what get cold when I am sleeping. I've never used a backpack for this purpose, but it seems that it would work just fine to me.
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akclimber
Mar 16, 2005, 9:34 AM
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Saw this thread from a search and figured I would resurect it. Anything else to add to the info?
My input:
In winter, a shovel, bivy sac and light bag has done me well. I have dung into a snow cave and slept, also done quite a few nights not dug in.
(I am going to start a new thread on snow saws.)
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paulraphael
Mar 16, 2005, 5:54 PM
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there's a big difference between a planned bivy and an unplanned bivy.
planned bivies on long routes are the realm of bivy sacks (or even bivy tents), stoves, booties, etc.. not comfortable enough to feel like camping, but definitely worth the extra gear.
unplanned bivies are the realm of "if you take bivy gear, you will bivy." this is where the minimalism comes in ... lying on ropes, stuffing your feet into packs, spooning some stinky guy you met on the internet ... in general, suffering enough to remind yourself to move faster next time, but not so much that you die.
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sspssp
Mar 16, 2005, 11:56 PM
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A lot of people mentioned taking space blankets (and one even mentioned taping blankets together). I don't see the rational for taking a space blanket when you can take a space bag that is not noticably different in bulk or weight.
Another alternative that hasn't taken off (I assume it is still in production), the same company that makes the space bag came out with a doubled wall version that poofs up for insulation. It was reviewed in one of the climbing magazines a year or so ago. About the size of a video cassette and a little under a pound. It was an effort to track down and order one, but I tried it out in sub freezing temps with just light polypro and it was very survivable. I thought it was a very good candidate to add to the semi-unplanned emergency bivy.
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sspssp
Mar 17, 2005, 12:03 AM
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Ok, for kicks I looked to see if it is still on the market. It is. Supposedly weighs 12 ounces.
http://www.mpioutdoors.com/extreme-bag.htm
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akclimber
Mar 17, 2005, 1:22 AM
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In reply to: Ok, for kicks I looked to see if it is still on the market. It is. Supposedly weighs 12 ounces. http://www.mpioutdoors.com/extreme-bag.htm
Looks sweet. Looks like a vapor barrier. You get rather moist inside it?
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maxclimber1w
Mar 17, 2005, 1:55 AM
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For all bivies (planned or no) I like to bring my 9oz. bivy, a superlight down vest, and a pair of down pants (no zippers, 800 fill). Its light and toasty. Pull your arms inside the vest for warmth. A warm hat too, and something fleece to go over the mouth, to keep warmth and moisture in. 2 pair socks, one which is super warm, long, thick, and stays dry in my parck all day.
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