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harihari
Feb 27, 2004, 5:08 AM
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This is in response to the "bag of tricks" thread. I was taught this and it's an incredible time-saver.
Our biggest friend on long trad routes or link-up days is speed. If we can simulclimb, massive time-savings can be made on moderate pitches. For example:
Two fit and fast climbers need (say) 20 min. to lead and second a 5.9 pitch (assuming bolted belays). That’s 3 pitches/hour. Simulclimbing…two people can do three pitches of 5.9 in 30 minutes. That’s 6 pitches per hour. Because both people are always moving together, and cos you only do the belay-building thing every 2-5 pitches, you save lots of time.
Here’s the system I was taught and tried on both multi-pitch sport and looong multi-pitch trad. It works incredibly well. But I only use it where there is minimal chance of falling. I.E. for the moderate pitches, and treat the harder stuff as you would normally.
Gear:
a 9.2 or 9.4 mm 60m rope. (fatter ones don’t feed well through the gri-gri)
A Gri-gri
A fairly big rack—two of everything, lots of wires (depends on the route)
Total of 20 slings and quickdraws (maybe more; depends on route)
3-5 Petzl ti-blocks and a locking biener for each
one locking biener for leader.
Leader doesn’t tie into the rope. Rather, make a figure-8 coil at the end of the rope and clip this into the leader’s harness using a locking biener The second doesn’t tie in either—s/he uses a Gri-gri to both belay the leader and to “attach” to the rope.
Leader starts and second belays leader as normal, using the gri-gri. When the leader is say 30 meters up the route, the leader installs an equalized piece (e.g. opposed wires). Onto this piece attaches one locking biener and a ti-block. Rope goes through ti-block and biener, so that if the second takes, the ti-block piece will take his/her weight. Leader then yells down to second “TI BLOCK!” and keeps climbing. Second starts climbing.
When the second gets going, s/he will not be “tied” into the rope, rather, s/he will be attached to the rope via the Gri-gri. If the second moves more quickly than the leader, s/he will move up the rope, closer to the leader. If the leader is moving more quickly, or if the second is stopping to remove gear, the second has to manually feed some rope up through the gri-gri. When the second sarts moving, s/he will have to pull the rope down through the gri-gri. After 10 m or so off the deck, the weight of the rope below the gri-gri will pull the rope down and through automatically. This will also keep the gri-gri "upright" or "straight" in case the second falls/takes. The rope just hangs below the second. Depending on the rock, you can tie a knot in it (if you are really worried that the second might slip off the end of the rope-- this is unlikely). If its rough terrain, don't knot the end, as it can catch. Or, tie in and carry the coils on your shoulders. However...if you do this, you risk the gri-gri twisting ona take/fall. best to let the rope trail.
you will ALWAYS have at least one equalised ti-block piece between leader and follower.
If the second takes/falls, the ti-block piece will take the weight, and the second’s gri-gri will hold him. The leader will simply find it impossible to move up until the second gets back onto the rock and starts either feeding rope through the gri-gri or moving. The second needs to make sure there is no slack between him and the leader, so that, in case of a fall, there is no "fall" onto the ti-block piece; rather, the ti-block takes the weight immediately. This is not too difficult and should happen automatically if the second is on a gri-gri.
When the second gets to the first ti-block piece, he yells up to the leader “TI BLOCK!” and waits. The leader then climbs on until he can install another solid equalized piece. When this second ti-block piece is in, the leader yells down to the second “TI BLOCK!” and the second can then remove the first ti-block piece. And so on—keep climbing. When the leader gets to a belay, he builds a belay and attaches his end or the rope to the belay using the locking biener. He then has time to eat, put ona jacket, etc, while the second is climbing and cleaning up the rope. When the second gets to the leader, he has most of the gear, and can simply “tie” in with the locking biener and hand the gri-gri over to the person who will now be seconding.
When placing the ti-block equalised piece, the best thing to do is to use the route's bolted belays (if these exist, e.g. on Epinephrine in Red Rocks). This is both fast and very safe. If this is not possible, the aim is to have a piece with NO MOVEMENT (i.e. the ti-block should not be flopping around on the end of a long sling). The reason for this is, if the second takes and the ti-block biner is flopping, it can pull the leader off. So...the ti-block piece needs to be somewhere where it does not create rope drag or flop around.
There you go. Works well. You need a fair # of pieces and slings/draws, so the disadvantages are a heavier rack, but there are such savings in time that it’s worth it.
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squish
Feb 27, 2004, 5:22 AM
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Very cool. That seems to make a lot of sense. The only question I have is: do you mean that the second climbs with a 15m loop (30m of rope) hanging down from their Gri-Gri? Doesn't this get snagged up?
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harihari
Feb 27, 2004, 5:32 AM
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I modified the post. The seocnd isnt' tied in at all-- is attached to the rope only via the gri-gri. the end of the rope just trails along behind the second.
it raisn on sunday cos you live (and work) in squamish. :?
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andy_lemon
Feb 27, 2004, 5:42 AM
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gri-gri's and tiblocks... not what they had to use in the old days. I wonder how sketchy that was. Aid and Alan Burgess are rock gods. :wink:
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bigdan
Feb 27, 2004, 6:44 AM
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Tiblocs are not designed to hold falls, and can and will often shred the rope as its teeth run through it during a dynamic fall. This is especially so with the thinner ropes you're suggesting. They were built for ascending, not to work as pro.
Don't simul-climb anything you expect to fall on. Use normal pro between leader and follower.
Also, you really ought to be tied in to the rope. Gri-gris hold falls well, but they do on occasion fail, and more often if twisted during a fall. Tie in to the rope just below your gri-gri and keep the slack in a coil on your back or stuffed in a pack. If you're simul-aiding, this isn't as much of a big deal, as by definition you're always weighting the gri-gri and keeping it in a safe position. If you're free-climbing the gri-gri has the opportunity as you move to twist, turn, whatever into a less than ideal position to catch your fall.
The other problem with this... as you mention, once you're high enough, the weight of the rope takes up slack for you. The problem with this is that the leader can't pull slack back up through the gri-gri. If that slack is constantly removed, there is constant tension pulling back on the leader, a dangerous position.
The second should be tied in and simply keep pace with the leader. If you're free-climbing you may not have the chance to stop and continually feed or take up slack as you climb anyway. There's really no good reason to have the second on a gri-gri as opposed to a knot. If you're not closely matched in speed and strength, simul-climbing doesn't really work very well anyway.
If you insist on using a gri-gri for the second, tie in with a clove hitch and leave a 10-20 foot loop between it and the gri-gri. You'll eliminate the tension on the leader, you've backed up your gri-gri, and you still get to play with your toy. Of course, now you've got a loop of rope in your feet the whole time. Forget the gri-gri and just tie in, there's no good reason to do otherwise.
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bhilden
Feb 27, 2004, 8:15 AM
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This suggestion is chock full of bad ideas.
-tibloc not intended to hold falls
-second not being tied to the end of the rope (this is a horribly, horribly bad thing)
-grigri doesn't work well for second if second is appropriately tied into the rope
(no weight on rope to help it feed through grigri)
- requires "equalized" nuts at each attachment point. The seriousness of the
attatchment point makes it, in reality, a belay. What's the difference between
setting up two "equalized" pieces of pro at each attachment point versus setting
up a belay. Not much.
I could go on and on and on and on. I wouldn't recommend such a complicated and
horribly flawed system to anyone. I can hear it now, "well, it's easy enough so you
aren't really going to fall, so it is OK."
The best way for most of us to become faster climbers is to learn how to do all the basics such as placing pro, setting up anchors and cleaning pro. Parctice it and get good at doing it quickly and where appropriate. Things like stopping with 20 feet of rope left where there are good nut placements rather than running out all the rope and spending 20 minutes trying to put in crappy pro are what makes you a fast climber.
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piton
Feb 27, 2004, 1:47 PM
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the 2nd should be the stronger climber
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timstich
Feb 27, 2004, 3:01 PM
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It's very good that this new system has gotten out onto this forum so it can be discussed. Personally, it feels like it has too many pieces of gear in non -standard roles. I have to say that in my experience pushing the limits of too many devices or using them in ways never conceived by the manufacturer is something to avoid. Initial good performance of the new system can and will lull you into thinking it is sound. Believe me, I've been there. You can also fixate on how your new system handles things so much better than the old way and lose track of what really matters, like redundancy and chosing the better failure mode.
Like it has been suggested, the Tibloc for one is not really suitable for the role it is playing. If anything, substitute a Microscender instead. It has a much better failure mode holding a hard fall than the Tibloc. Weight in this case shouldn't be the primary concern. And like another poster said, why not just climb at the pace of the leader?
Whatever you end up doing in your own practice, do at least keep evaluating it and reporting your results here. I would also ask that people not flame someone unduly who is willing to speak openly about experimental belaying setups like this one, not that anyone has so far. There are those on the edge who don't respond well to harsh criticism and will not benefit from dire predictions of impending death.
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tomtom
Feb 27, 2004, 6:16 PM
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In reply to: Tiblocs are not designed to hold falls, and can and will often shred the rope as its teeth run through it during a dynamic fall. This is especially so with the thinner ropes you're suggesting. They were built for ascending, not to work as pro.
I agree. My experience with tiblocs is if you don't 'set' the teeth into the sheath before weighting it, there is the possibility that the teeth will surf the sheath and shred it. :shock:
Been there, done that.
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joneiche
Feb 27, 2004, 6:35 PM
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In reply to: a 9.2 or 9.4 mm 60m rope. (fatter ones dont feed well through the gri-gri)
Doesn't Petzl recommend not using any cord less than 10mm with a Gri-Gri. Could this possibly be the reason this system feeds so well?
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crotch
Feb 27, 2004, 6:48 PM
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Not so sure about the microcenders being much gentler on the rope if you're talking about things like the ropeman. If I was going to rebelay mid-pitch while simulclimbing, I'd probably want a Gibbs, but that's just me, and I don't rebelay while simuling.
The 2nd not being tied in sounds REALLY bad. There was a story of someone being saved by their tie in when their grigri biner got crossloaded and broke. Maybe 'mrhardgrit' soloing Eagle's Way? Any and every sane solo belay system has the climber tied in to the rope and tying in short as well. Relying on one device and one biner seems very risky. And if you're not going to fall, why go through the trouble?
The way I simulclimb is basically to climb as if soloing, but keeping 2-3 pieces between me and my partner. If I reach a tricky spot where a belay may be nice, I call up/down to my partner, wait for them to get to a secure & comfy stance/place a piece so that they can belay. Once past the tricky part, we resume simulclimbing. 100' of rope out seems to be about right for me. 60meters is just too far to effectively communicate, and rope drag can become an issue, but it does mean that you can place less gear and go farther between belay swaps.
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timstich
Feb 27, 2004, 6:57 PM
Post #12 of 36
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In reply to: Not so sure about the microcenders being much gentler on the rope if you're talking about things like the ropeman. If I was going to rebelay mid-pitch while simulclimbing, I'd probably want a Gibbs, but that's just me, and I don't rebelay while simuling.
I would pass on rebelaying as well. But as for the Gibbs, they aren't as gentle to the rope as Petzl Microscenders and Rescuescenders. Mind you, that's the brand name item, not the general term for small ascenders. You are correct that the Wildman would be less than ideal.
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tedc
Feb 27, 2004, 7:00 PM
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In reply to: Not so sure about the microcenders being much gentler on the rope if you're talking about things like the ropeman. If I was going to rebelay mid-pitch while simulclimbing, I'd probably want a Gibbs, but that's just me, and I don't rebelay while simuling.
The Petzl microcender and the Gibbs are nearly identical. If anything, the microcender is a little nicer to the rope due to its smoother body. the cams are basically identical though.
OOPS. timstich beat me to it.
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crotch
Feb 27, 2004, 7:33 PM
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My bad. Didn't realize that Microcender was an actual product, rather thought it was a generic term. Agreed that microcender would be preferable if one were to rebelay.
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harihari
Feb 27, 2004, 7:44 PM
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In answer to some of the concerns raised about the simulclimbing system:
a) Ti-blocks, true, are not designed to take falls. However, the aim is to simulclimb with NO SLACK between leader and second. That way, the second weighting the tiblock is the same as using it to jug. The ti-block immediately takes the weight, rather than the second falling a few meters and the rope then catching him/her.
b) a Ropeman works well too, but they are a bunch heavier.
c) the ti-block is designed to be used with 8mm to 11 mm ropes (well, that's what the instruction booklet says).
d) when placing the ti-block equalised piece, the best thing to do is to use the route's bolted belays (if these exist, e.g. on Epinephrine in Red Rocks). This is both fast and very safe. If this is not possible, the aim is to have a piece with NO MOVEMENT (i.e. the ti-block should not be flopping around on the end of a long sling). The reason for this is, if the second takes and the ti-block biner is flopping, it can pull the leader off. So...the ti-block piece needs to be somewhere where it does not create rope drag or flop around.
I have used this system when climbing Sisyhus Summits (12 pitches of up to 10d, all bolted). It worked beautifully. our "rack" was 42 draws. We did it in 4 long pitches. I also used it on the NE buttress of Mt Slesse (20 pitches of up to 5.9 and some 4th class). We saved a LOT of time and were able to do the route in one day (about 18 hours car to car) instead of bivvying, as some parties do. My second fell (took) once during this route. The system held fine-- I had to wait a few seconds until she got back on the rock. Mind you, the rock on this route of of superb quality. You get bomber placements.
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crotch
Feb 27, 2004, 8:00 PM
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In reply to: My second fell (took) once during this route. The system held fine-- I had to wait a few seconds until she got back on the rock.
Ultimately this comes down to the level of risk that each team is willing to take. Clearly simulclimbing is riskier than pitching it out, and soloing riskier yet, all things being equal. Speed climbing is often about compromising safety for speed. So be it.
That the system worked fine once is not an indication that it will perform well always, or even most of the time. I suggest that having the seconds' sole attachment to the rope be via a gri-gri & locking biner is quite a bit riskier than having the 2nd tied in somewhere.
I'm not convinced that under normal circumstances the gri-gri system is significantly faster than the method of simulclimbing I employ, but I do believe that it involves more risk.
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vegastradguy
Feb 27, 2004, 9:26 PM
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tiblocs (not ti-block) require a hand on them and the carabiner for them to function properly all the time. it says this in the instruction manual. without your hand on the device, the device can (and will) shred your line.
if you're willing to accept that risk, that's your call.
also, not tying into the line is just insane. if the grigri's biner gets crossloaded (its happened to me while aid-jugging), and you take a fall, you're going to snap that biner in half and your second (and you) are going to die. tie into the line and give yourself some peace of mind.
simul-climbing has its place in certain situations. its your call to make when to do it and when not to do it. i generally will not simul anything over about 5.6, although i have (in extraordinary circumstances) simul-climbed up to about 5.9.
and always, always, have the strongest climber as the second for simul-climbing!
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okieterry
Feb 27, 2004, 10:36 PM
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my 2 cents:
I've simul climbed a lot of long climbs and I love it. The feeling of moving fast up a long route is so cool...
On a climb that we agree to simul on, my partner and I usually just tie in and go...you just climb at the same pace to keep the rope reasonably snug beteen you..
I personally don't see a need to use the gri gri for the second and it does seem very dangerous. I personally had a gri gri fail one time while I was toproping a climb. It somehow got caught in a knot and couldn't fully "open" the cam. The rope just ran through it and I fell down to my safety knot!!
One thing about the tibloc method, besides the rope shredding stuff, the second will not be able to get slack for any reason!! One time my partner and I were simul-ing the east buttress of el cap and Willie Beneges and partner were simul-ing right behind us. He was using the method that you describe with the tiblocks. He had a bunch of them on his harness with locker biners and would use one at good bolts. Near the top we heard some yelling and I looked down and saw Willie downclimbing. It turns out that his partner got to a place that he had to go down a little before he went back up and he couldn't because the tiblock had locked down on the rope when he tried to make a move down. Willie had to downclimb over that last little headwall section to get back and release the tiblock while this huge loop of rope hang down - looked kinda silly.
Have fun and don't fall when you're simul-ing....thats the bottom line.
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karlbaba
Feb 28, 2004, 8:04 AM
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My complaint with the initial post is with the assurances of how safe the system is. It's quite unsafe and should only be used by those who understand the risks.
I've used the Ti-block trick before. I think it's worthwhile but never think it's a license to fall for the second. The sheath of the rope might very well shred but it's better than pulling the leader off. Other small ascenders usually aren't an option unless they feed totally freely when unattended at an anchor.
I like to use a gri-gri on the follower. It helps for the second to be able to belay the leader for short sections if necessary or take up slack when necessary. BUT THE GRI_GRI IS NOT RATED FOR ROPES BELOW 10MM!! Not tying in or having a secure stopper knot is insanity! You could easily slip off the end of the rope. I've belayed the second a lot with a gri-gri and a 9.8 mm line. You have to be mindful to ensure you don't let go of the rope so it doesn't slip through the device. If there is a danger the loop of the rope between the gri-gri and tie-in could get snagged, then try to keep that loop short to non-existent or quit simulclimbing until you can do so without hangups.
There are examples of folks shredding the rope (just the sheath) with the tiblock trick but they made the mistake of having the second begin jugging on the rope being held by the tiblock or batmanning on the rope held by the tiblock. It's a last resort to weight that thing just like the second falling is a huge no-no.
Peace
karl
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alpinestylist
Mar 8, 2004, 2:36 PM
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wow, i weap for hariharis future. i have simulclimbed many times in many situations. for some reason he sounds a bit unseasoned and a bit suspect. jonny copp was the first person to tell me about the tibloc trick, i tried it bunches, but prefer just to let the rope run. while leading through difficult terrain is one thing, following through it presents bigger problems. i use the grigri trick for the second, but only with a fat rope. harihari you ever sport climbing with a 9mm and a grigri, no es bueno amigo.
i believe hans book says to use a ropeman instead of tibloc. the downclimbing problem for the second is very viable.
i was always taught to treat simulclimbing like soloing. i have only engaged in it with good partners on good days, not just any schmoe i meet in the school union.
yeah, if you are solid it is the ticket to linkups, beating storms, and making it home by happy hour... or it can be a rope shreading cluster fuck, stay honed.
hansbook i read after years of practice simulclimbing, and it seems a great reference, and refined my system.
get honed, and ill let you pass anytime
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j_ung
Mar 8, 2004, 3:48 PM
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I dunno. When simulclimbing (which I really only do on easy terrain and with the most trusted of partners), the simpler the better as far as I'm concerned. I prefer to let the rope run. I'm also worried about the tibloc surfing the sheath in an actual second-fall (not just a "take") and the Gri-gri failing entirely if it gets twisted.
Obviously the safer of the two systems is debatable (since we're doing it now), but I'm willing to bet money that the simpler system is significantly faster. If speed is safety, then... well y'know...
This is a good thread, BTW. Thanks harihari! :D
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j-tha-b
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Mar 8, 2004, 5:44 PM
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instead of a tibloc why not clove hitch it. if im getting this right the clove hitch would be an effective rebelay or whatever halfway through it but the leader would start climbing again with the prospect of a big whip.
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j-tha-b
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Mar 8, 2004, 5:47 PM
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nevermind scratch that. i think it would shockload the crap out of everything. i was just thinking "ummmmm no i probably wouldn't trust my pro that much" it was almost a good idea though
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vegastradguy
Mar 8, 2004, 5:59 PM
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actually, the clove hitch would prevent you from climbing higher.
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coclimber26
Mar 8, 2004, 6:56 PM
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I have seen the Gri-Gri fail on a 9.2mm rope...know your equipment...tiblock on a dynamic fall...come on man.
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