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dredsovrn
Mar 6, 2004, 2:36 PM
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I did my first trad lead a few days ago. I hadn't planned to do it that day, but after a few follows to warm up, I felt good. Confident, and in tune. I racked up and chose an easy climb I had followed on before.
I didn't feel hesitant or scared the whole time. I felt very comfortable above my gear and in my placements. Afterwards, my partner remarked at how comfortable I was, and that I was talking and joking with him as I climbed. I didn't feel like I was doing that out of nervousness or fear. I just felt comfortable and was having a good time.
Does that indicate that I wasn't in the moment, or that I was. I felt like I was in the moment, but wondered later if it indicated that I was trying to keep my brain busy so I didn't get scared. I am pretty sure that wasn't the case, but what do you think. Do you chat it up when you are comfortable or are you too focused to talk. I guess it would often depend on the level of challenge.
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dirtineye
Mar 7, 2004, 2:52 AM
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Good topic hahaha.
I am a chatter bos. Unless the climb gets REALLY hard. THen I almost always shut up.
I'll talk about anything-- the climb, the gear I need, the rock, the wather, Dr Seusse, just anything. I'll sometimes sing stupid songs I make up as I go.
I even talk to myself when I am totally alone, as in soloing or bouldeiing.
Sometimes I talk to the rock too. It does not really talk back, but IT tells me stuff. I'm not kidding. This usually happens when I am alone. The rock will show me where to go or where a hold is.
I don't like to tell people this, cause they will think I am nuts. Once I was sitting up ontop of a cliff, adn I thought I felt a presence, and so I sort of asked if there was one, and a pine cone moved on a branch. Only, there was no wind.
Kind of a Don Juan moment.
I swear I am not making this up.
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fracture
Mar 7, 2004, 8:29 PM
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I haven't really considered it from a WW perspective, but I talk to myself a lot when I trad lead. Not so much (at all) when I sport lead. Mainly when I stop to place pro is when I'll start saying stuff out loud.
Perhaps this might be one way to make the witness position more easily attainable, since I'm saying whatever I'm thinking out loud. But maybe (more likely) it's just caused by the fact that I'm still nervous about falling on trad gear.
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dirtineye
Mar 8, 2004, 2:11 PM
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It's funny fracture, you and I have the opposite reaction to when things get down to the nitty gritty.
I clam up, you talk more.
Different reactions to the same situation.
One as valid as the other.
Do you think the talking keeps you from focusing as well, or does it release a little tension and help you focus more?
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fracture
Mar 9, 2004, 2:09 AM
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In reply to: Do you think the talking keeps you from focusing as well, or does it release a little tension and help you focus more?
I think it can do either.
For example, if I place a piece and like it, I might say out loud something about how I'm willing to fall on it. This probably makes me more comfortable about climbing above it.
However, I'm still pretty new to placing gear, and it can sometimes take me a minute to get a good placement. Talking out-loud in this cases probably increases anxiety and makes me less calm, which is the opposite of what I want.
I think the talking is mostly a nervous reaction when I'm placing gear. I think I'll do less of it as I get more comfortable with trusting my pro.
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iamthewallress
Mar 9, 2004, 10:51 PM
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When the climbing is well within my limits talking out loud to my partner about something besides the climbing is a good way for me to shut off a lot of conscious thought from clouding my experience by introducing doubt, over analysis, etc. It helps me to let my body flow through the moves in a less conscious way.
Also, sharing the day with my parter is part of the moment that I want to be in while I climb, so when the difficulty permits it, clowning around can make the day richer.
Nonetheless, when I'm at my limit I'll rarely have anything to say besides "watch me".
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unabonger
Mar 10, 2004, 2:46 PM
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Anyone seen Hard Grit? Seb Grieve seems to carry on a whole conversation with the rock and uses some choice Brit style expletives too.
UB
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timpanogos
Mar 15, 2004, 8:49 PM
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Last Saturday, I found myself warriored about 27 up a r/x featurless slab, about 3 short of some nice bolts short roped on my solo grigri.
Yes I was talking to several people:
1. Myself what the hell were you thinking?
2. Burning calves sorry dudes DONT budge!
3. God Ill never swear again if you help me live through this.
4. Arno you Dumb SOB, who besides me would be stupid enough to tell themselves cowboy up and go for it!
5. loop back to 1
I have to admit, somewhere in these conversations, I keep telling myself to breath and focus on the critical problem at hand (getting some rope ASAP).
Damned if it didn't work - just not sure which conversation made it happen?
Chad
Continued:
Since this poor forum is dead (but desires life) Ill carry on some more.
One thing I did notice on the approach same old conversation damn, why do you bring so much stuff, huffing and puffing Im in horrible shape I WISH the approach was easier, shorter, downhill something other than this. I wish I was at the base already then I hear this noisy bird calling out a warning and this beautiful blue jay coming down to check out this doe-doe post holing in the snowy approach.
Heck, this is part of the climb this is part of the journey sit down on that rock and enjoy the bird/view for awhile.
I have not read the book yet, only these threads and the introduction but sure enough, the approach, descent sweet aid placements, easy rivet ladder and yes, my crux those scary as hell ramps were the essence of and the journey through the days adventure.
Looking at the necessary evil, ugly approach as part of the enjoyment of the journey was something new nothing like sharing that view down a snowy LLC on a nice sunny morning with that Jay, Glorious!
Chad
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dirtineye
Mar 16, 2004, 11:45 AM
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What difficulty was the slab Chad? Was it the kind where if you had had pro or been near the ground ( aka bouldering fall) you would not have batted an eye at it, regardless of difficulty, or was it something easy but scary because of the "What if I fall now?", thing, or what?
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timpanogos
Mar 16, 2004, 3:35 PM
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I have a hard time judging slab ratings I was told by some locals that had done this that it was 5.9 It was low angle and did not look that bad. I had my new aid climbing boots on these are hiking boots that my shoe guy had put ½ sole 5.10 stealth rubber on the front half with nice toe rands.
During the fall analysis phase I realized that this was indeed a potential x run out. But like you asked if this was not an r/x run out would you even be concerned about this. My answer was no this looks ok go for it.
I do not have much slab experience and the History that I do have with slab involved a fall that hurt. But then I did have some positive History on Cruel Shoes at City of Rocks (3 pitch granite slab route) so these conversations were going on in my head Cruel Shoes won, and I got out on it.
This is a slab where you are looking for micro crystals, dips, small indents etc. in an otherwise featureless countertop. The boots actually worked well for outright smears, and actually not bad on some micro feature smeared edge types of moves, only no feeling/control because of the bulk/looseness of the boots.
Anyway, If I would not have short roped myself before talking off, it would not have turned into one whimpering experience 3 feet from safety.
Moving to the action phase on this was VERY committing, because I had lowered myself out about 15 on the grigri to test out the ramp at the edge (more divits, less snot green stuff) and had climbed up as far as this would let me arc. Dealing out another 15 or so of slack and dropping in on the ramp (should have been 18 or so) was damn scarey looking down realizing that it was serious if you pitched. All of this with Aiders, Daisies, heavy rack dangling off of you.
When I finished and rapped I thought heck the bolts would have keep you off the lower deck you were just full of irrational fear. On rap, I check this out closer It was a lower deck fall if you did not make the clip.
I guess this is another one of those History things even having done this once I think I would assess the danger too high to go for this again at least on solo. But even on belay the leader could not run from the belay stance and would have to be very fast at sucking in rope if you can sliding down. Actually regular climbing shoes would also weigh heavy in a future decision for me to lead this part of the pitch.
p.s. this is the beta I got on the ramp:
brianslc said:
In reply to: I recall the climb to the ramp on the original Peeler Direct being around 5.9ish
bsmoot said:
In reply to: the slabs feels like 5.7 or 5.8 if you have sticky rubber shoes on.
I assume it was 5.7 to 5.8
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dirtineye
Mar 16, 2004, 5:59 PM
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So in climbing shoes you might have had no trouble then? and the short roping was a big part of the ordeal I gather.
I've done a little ( more than a little actually) free soloing in vibram soled trail shoes, and sometimes you do have those little conversations with your self about 30 feet up with one mvoe to go that a climbing shoe would pull easily but a trail shoes makes, shall we say, "interesting".
I'm not sure about your landing, but I would call 27 feet R, not X. Of course it depends on how you land I guess.
Slabs can be misleading. And I agree that a low angle slab fall has its own unique crunge factor. having rolled down a 20 foor section of slab and acros the ground ONCE, kucking out in the process, I hope I never do it again.
Anyway, having been in several kind of similar situations, I'd recommend that you disallow all self conversation except for the stuff that will help you get up the climb. When I was about 20 feet from the top of the first pitch of a 140 foot 5.7 no pro slab with water to cross, I allowed exactly one thought about what a bad fall it would be, and spent maybe 10 minutes decidng wether or not to wait for the water to dry, or how to go around it, and looking for an altenate path to safety.
Yeha if I had short roped myself I'd have been a little irritated, but I pretty much save the thoughts and feelings that won't help right then for later-- I'm not joking a bit, after one tedious climb over bad gear I spent two weeks wondering how and why I had done it, fearing for my life, but while I was on the climb I just didn't have time for that kind of thinking.
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timpanogos
Mar 16, 2004, 8:29 PM
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In reply to: So in climbing shoes you might have had no trouble then?
more likely, especially if I was not dragging aiders and and carrying 15 pound aid rack
In reply to: and the short roping was a big part of the ordeal I gather.
Yes, I struggled with conversation, then went for it - feeling like a real warrior, until ......
In reply to: I'm not sure about your landing, but I would call 27 feet R, not X.
The pitch actually starts with about 20' of 5.5ish slab, and hits a vertical wall that has a arching flake.
I make about 5 aid moves up this flake which then brings you to the right traversing ramp - being a traversing arch
I was only 3rd stepping it - so I'd guess this was about a 20' wall. You then went across the ramp (90 degrees) about 15'
to solid gear in the corner. The bottom of the ramp dumped into a wall. The ramp at the bottom wall was a 5.7ish slab slopping towards the 20' cliff as well as 5.8ish ramping traversal 90 degrees to the right.
Anyway, it appeared to be a double ground fall - first - skinned and slammed into the bottom of the ramp wall (R), then pitching off the 20' vertical to the 5.5 slabs below (X?). So maybe not X if you happened to land on your feet on the second hit. The other factor, was I had a phone but was all alone up there.
In reply to: save the thoughts and feelings that won't help right then for later--
Actually I think this is what is happening - I did what I needed to do at the time, telling myself to relax and breath helped - I pulled it off, and got creepy feeling about it after I was done for the day. Even though I did it without injury, I question if I should have.
But like you originally said - if this was not a broken bone - R fall potential - this would not have been so mentally stressful.
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dirtineye
Mar 16, 2004, 10:28 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: save the thoughts and feelings that won't help right then for later-- Actually I think this is what is happening - I did what I needed to do at the time, telling myself to relax and breath helped - I pulled it off, and got creepy feeling about it after I was done for the day. Even though I did it without injury, I question if I should have. But like you originally said - if this was not a broken bone - R fall potential - this would not have been so mentally stressful.
Sounds like you are doing the WW thing right to me then. The ability to focus on the task at hand and clear your mind of extraneous thoughts is perhaps the most important part of what Arno teaches, along with efficient climbing and risk assessment and falling preparation.
I find it perplexing that the breathing thing is so easy to screw up. I've had to re-learn breathing in every different sport I've done LOL. And just because you lean it does not mean you can't forget or unlearn it and screw up your breathing in a new or suddenlt stressful situation! When I used to do medical research micro surgery I held my breath then too. When I was a kid gluing modle airplanes together I held my breath then too LOL. I think people just tend to hold theur breath when concentrating on anything, in must be natural, but it sure can be counter productive!
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