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deleted
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Mar 8, 2004, 9:06 PM
Post #26 of 36
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*calling doctor darwin. doctor darwin to surgery*
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harihari
Mar 8, 2004, 11:47 PM
Post #27 of 36
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Thanks to everybody who is offering their input on this topic. I have learned a few things and have a few more comments and questions.
a) A few people have talked about the second's gri-gri not gripping the rope (i.e. they say it might twist and fail, OR that it won't properly hold a 9.4 mm rope).
I found that the weight of (say) 20 m of rope below the second pretty much held the gri-gri upright. I also found that this same weight of rope caused the gri-gri to grip the rope. We tested the system before trying it out by hanging the rope up, then weighting it with a climber's weight (on a gri-gri), and seeing if the gri-gri would hold. It did, due to the weight of the rope below the second. Also, contrary to what one person wrote, the gri-gri is rated from 9.7 to 11 mm. I have used a 9.6 and a 9.8, both of which worked well. (an older rope will always gripa bit better).
We also found that it was sometimes necessary for the second to sling a few meters of rope over his/her shoulder (*below* the gri gri), in order to allow the leader to move ahead when the second was moving more slowly or stopped. IE, we found that the weight of the rope below the gri-gri gripped it so well that the leader couldn't just pull rope up/through the gri-gri when s/he moved faster and/or needed some slack.
b) The idea of the clove-hitch as a replacement for the tiblocs is interesting, but i don't think the rope would feed too well.
c) A # of people have expressed concern that the tibloc would shred the rope due to the second falling. In my experience, the second stays on the rope via gri-gri so that there is *no* slack between leader and second. if there were, the second could definitely damage the rope. However, if there is no slack, the second falling is just the equivalent of a take. I.E., the tibloc *immediately* takes weight, rather than the person falling for a bit and then weighting the tibloc.
So, my questions...
1) if you didn't want to use the gri-gri for the second...you probably wouldn't want to use tiblocs at all (since a second's fall onto slack would destroy the rope). right? wouldn't you in this case want to just simulclimb with only normal gear between you, and no slack, and no tiblocs?
2) if you wanted the advantages of the gri-gri (the second beng able to move up/down the rope and belay the leader at the beginning of pitches) but are concerned about the safety of the gri-gri...with what might you replace it, or back it up?
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bigdan
Mar 9, 2004, 5:43 PM
Post #28 of 36
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I don't really worry about the second needing to move up or down the rope. If you have the time to feed yourself extra slack and keep the hanging rope from pulling itself back through the grigri to go taut again, you could just climb. I have never run into the problem, unless you're leader is a much faster climber than the second, in which case you're not a well-matched simul team anyway. If the tiblocs are made safer by eliminating slack between it and the second, it's not possible for the second to get slack if it is needed without stopping to fiddle with the grigri.
When simul-climbing, I'm not worried about belaying the leader. On the occasion that I have I just slap on a quick ATC or something, which takes all of 7 seconds.
The grigri works in a test, but that doesn't change the fact that it CAN fail. Petzl says so. It's once in awhile on thin ropes, not all the time. It will happen more often on a dirty or slick rope.
Simpler is better, in my opinion.
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sspssp
Mar 9, 2004, 5:54 PM
Post #29 of 36
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You don't have to have the second on a grigri to simulclimb, but there are advantages. If the leader is slow (or has stopped to place gear), the second can climb through an awkward section to a good stance and then suck up the slack. If the second is trying to fiddle a piece out, they can feed some rope out to keep from hosing the leader. When simul-climbing, my partner usually ties into the middle of the rope and then clips into the grigri with about ten feet of slack between the grigri and the tie in point.
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alpinestylist
Mar 11, 2004, 8:25 PM
Post #30 of 36
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i canīt imagine a clove hitch doing anything but hitching tight.
did someone really say 60 feet of rope below the grigri...good luck wth that cluster fuck.
stay sharp
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karlbaba
Mar 12, 2004, 8:56 AM
Post #31 of 36
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The problem isn't so much using the gri-gri but doing so without any back-up of the second being tied into the rope. That's nuts. In a fall, it's always possible to jam the gri-gri cam down so that it doesn't catch.
The tibloc can mess up the rope, even if there's not much slack (and even with a gri-gri there has to be some because it's impossible for a second and leader to simulclimb at the same speed. Zero slack and you'd constantly yank on the leader. Anyway, the tibloc is caused to catch on the rope in normal use by the biner coming down in narrowing channel to snug against the rope. In the simulclimbing application, the rope is thing that moves down if the second falls. That's different and it creates a greater rope snagging hazard. This has happened to elite climbers doing grade 6's in a few hours.
The clove hitch is impossible to use instead of a tibloc or a gri-gri in the system stated. The suggestion suggests a misunderstanding.
Simulclimbing is in the range of soloing in danger. Sometimes it's double or nothing. Using tricks properly can make things more survivable if you're lucky but not falling is the order of business
Peace
karl
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drkodos
Mar 12, 2004, 9:08 AM
Post #32 of 36
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In reply to: not falling is the order of business Peace karl
That is the only feckin system, people.
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alpinestylist
Mar 12, 2004, 2:12 PM
Post #33 of 36
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these last two posts speak the truth, heed the advice.
one last point, and then ill shut up, promise
i call the leader climbing too fast and pulling all the slack out of the system,sled dogging your partner, used shrewdly it can help in tense moments for the second.
indeed the bottom line is simul climbing is a two for one solo fest.
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karlbaba
Mar 12, 2004, 4:29 PM
Post #34 of 36
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While my post was intended to point out the hazards of the system, I should still say that the dangerous system has it's place and I sometimes use a tibloc while simulclimbing.
That means situations where the leader is the most solid and experieced climber (maybe he knows the route) He wants some extra protection against the second pulling him off, and in my mind the tibloc is way better than nothing, If the second doesn't fall, it's no different than regular simulclimbing, if the second falls, the leader has a chance.
That doesn't make it safe or an excuse to push too much harder
peace
karl
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vincent
Mar 19, 2004, 8:59 PM
Post #35 of 36
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i've been interested in a running belay for places like the east face of whitney or snake dike. i've never employed one though. as i see it the basic technique is that the leader climbs placing gear and the second cleans and moves along with the leader (both tied in to the rope, no grigris or tiblocs). so if the second falls the leader is in trouble. so the leader reduces his risk of a scary long "pulled of the rock" fall by placing gear often right?
another risk i see is slack building up between the two climbers. but often times you want that 60m rope for when u have to actually climb with a standard belay. so i was thinking why not double the rope up so that there is essentially 30m between the climbers. both can tie in with a figure 8 on a bight and the shorter distance between the two makes communication better and lets them see who needs to speed up or slow down . the only problem i see is that you are basically clipping in two ropes through your biners and that might get a little bulky . has anyone tried this?
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sspssp
Mar 19, 2004, 9:06 PM
Post #36 of 36
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Most simul climbers do shorten the rope. For example, the second might tie in at the halfway point. The rest of the rope is usually coiled and carried by the second.
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