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usmc_2tothetop
Mar 18, 2004, 10:11 PM
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Ok stupid question. Maybe I have the wrong perception. I was reading some info on one of the pro athletes I believe it was John Gill who I'm in awe of. He was stating the levels of hiking or climbing from 1 to 6, 1= a modest hike, 2=challenging hike, 3=scramble, then rope comes into play it got to the 5 and explained how they branch off 5.6, 5.10b, etc, and 6= aid climbing. What exactly are the characteristics of aid climbing and what sets it apart from the rest? Thanks in advance
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skiclimb
Mar 18, 2004, 10:19 PM
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1 through 6 still applies and you have it basically correct. 5 is freeclimbing where the rope and gear is only used to protect from a fall...aid climbing encompasses using the gear as a hold or attachement point to support weight and upward progress ...it has become fairly sophisticated compared to early days...but that's the concept.
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coclimber26
Mar 18, 2004, 10:38 PM
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Aid climbing isn't classified 6.1 or 6.2. It is classified with a letter and number. Traditionally A0-A5. A meaning aid. A0 would be pulling on a piece of protection to pass a hard section of free climbing, also known as "French Freeing". A1 would be easy aiding with good placements using aiders and little risk of a large fall...the aid climbing gets progressively harder up to A5 where there are large fall potentials on body weight only pieces. You may also see a C rating C1-5 means clean aid where a hammer is not needed. Most A ratings now mean you must use a hammer to place pitons or heads. You may also see a C2F or similar. This means the aid climbing can be done clean because of fixed protection. If the fixed protection is missing then the route may be harder.
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usmc_2tothetop
Mar 18, 2004, 10:39 PM
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Ok so basically aside from climbing in one blow (multi-pitch or not you top out boom and your done.) Aid would be where you take your time, carry lots of gear, use of ascenders, set ups of portaledges, and can last for more then one day. So it's kind of like hiking and camping on the side of a wall. Am I close?
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iamthewallress
Mar 18, 2004, 10:42 PM
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In reply to: Ok so basically aside from climbing in one blow (multi-pitch or not you top out boom and your done.) Aid would be where you take your time, carry lots of gear, use of ascenders, set ups of portaledges, and can last for more then one day. So it's kind of like hiking and camping on the side of a wall. Am I close?
It can be that, but it can also be when you take tension at each of the hard moves on a top rope to reach the anchors.
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usmc_2tothetop
Mar 18, 2004, 10:43 PM
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Oh ok. Do alot of people apose aid because of defacing the rock?
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maculated
Mar 18, 2004, 10:43 PM
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Aid climbing is vertical backpacking, more or less.
Class 6 is sort of theoretical. If you look at older material before the
"A" and "C" system, you'll see occasional references to Class 6 climbs. It wouldn't really make sense, though, as Grade 5 is technical climbing, and covers overhanging. Aid just links up a bunch hard Grade 5s.
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usmc_2tothetop
Mar 18, 2004, 10:45 PM
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If it also means that why do they have aid rated at 6 as if it is harder or more skilled.
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vegastradguy
Mar 18, 2004, 10:48 PM
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no, i wouldnt say theres alot of opposition to aid climbing. probably more respect for those who undertake it than opposition. many walls these days go 'clean' so it doesnt deface the rock. there are those climbs that dont go clean, where pitons are needed, and there is some debate over the use of pitons because they scar the rock...and there's certainly issues of fixed pro, bolting aid lines, etc...
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coylec
Mar 18, 2004, 10:54 PM
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In reply to: Ok so basically aside from climbing in one blow (multi-pitch or not you top out boom and your done.) Aid would be where you take your time, carry lots of gear, use of ascenders, set ups of portaledges, and can last for more then one day. So it's kind of like hiking and camping on the side of a wall. Am I close?
No. Aid climbing is climbing that utilizes anything other than natural rock to make progress up the wall. There are one pitch aid climbs that can be done in a (relatively) short period of time.
You can take your time, carry lots of gear, setup portaledges and last for more than one day free-climbing. Big wall climbing is characterized (partially) by what you have said, but it not necessary aid (though for many it involves aid).
Aid is simply using stuff other than rock to move up. It gets really complicated when you looking at all the stuff (hundreds of piton types, heads, bashies, mashies, nuts, hexes, sliding nuts, hooks, cams, bros, et al)
You may be conflating the yosemite RATING system (1 - 6 grading system) with the GRADING system. While the rate of a climb indictates its difficulty, the grade of a climb indictates its time commitment: Grade I are single pitch climbs, Grade III is multiple pitchs (usu. most of a day), Grade IV is all day (if you're quick), Grade V is 2 - 3 nights, Grade VI means most parties will spend more than three days. Some people will spend weeks on a wall, while others will speed through the same ascent.
coylec
ps - its always considered to be in the "best style" as i've heard it described, to do a route as clean as possible.
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iamthewallress
Mar 18, 2004, 10:57 PM
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In reply to: Aid climbing is vertical backpacking, more or less. Class 6 is sort of theoretical. If you look at older material before the "A" and "C" system, you'll see occasional references to Class 6 climbs. It wouldn't really make sense, though, as Grade 5 is technical climbing, and covers overhanging. Aid just links up a bunch hard Grade 5s.
I don't follow you here.
Wall climbing (Grade V or VI's) and aid climbing (6th Class) are not synonymous.
Aid climbing means weighting your gear to make upward progress. That can be pulling on one piece of gear or doing a penji on an otherwise free route (i.e. 5.10 A0), it can be a single pitch (Grade I) A4+ seam, or it can be a Grade VI that might have gone at 5.4 if you hadn't chosen to aid it.
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drkodos
Mar 18, 2004, 11:00 PM
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In reply to: no, i wouldnt say theres alot of opposition to aid climbing. probably more respect for those who undertake it than opposition. many walls these days go 'clean' so it doesnt deface the rock. there are those climbs that dont go clean, where pitons are needed, and there is some debate over the use of pitons because they scar the rock...and there's certainly issues of fixed pro, bolting aid lines, etc...
The general publics knows no distinctions in climbing.
Aid climbing was bada$$ 20 years ago, but today, it is the realm of the wannbee greenhorns that don't have the nads to free climb hard stuff.
Sure, there are still some stout hard people putting up tough aid pieces, but slogging up trade routes can be learned by anyone these days.
No one has to go through paying their dues anyomore.
The secrets have all been revealed.
The gear is so technologically advanced, a monkey can be trained to place A1/C1 to A3/C3.
The learning curve has been so flattened as to be a barely noticeable molehill. It is easy to get started, and easy to do. All it takes is a little money for gear, and some time to give it a go.
Anyone with the inclination and or desires can get the feck up a wall on aid.
Doing so as a freeclimber is a completely different realm.
The chasm between the two is vast, and geting larger each day as aid becomes easier. However, aid climbers refuse to or cannot acknowledge it publically.
But, in the deepest bowels of the inner psyche, they know the truth.
We all do.
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timpanogos
Mar 18, 2004, 11:37 PM
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Golly Doctor!
Ya hurt my feelings, I’m gonna gather up my 50 pounds of $3k worth of toys and go play somewhere else!
Chad
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maculated
Mar 18, 2004, 11:41 PM
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In reply to: I don't follow you here. Wall climbing (Grade V or VI's) and aid climbing (6th Class) are not synonymous.
Ick, my terminology was bad.
Class = 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.x, 6, etc
Grade = I, II, III, IV, V, VI
I don't believe you can create a 6th Class climb. The theory behind the class system isn't method of ascent, but terrain, right?
1st class is sidewalk. 5th class is technical climbing. I have climbed 5.10 and it has been aid. It didn't become 6th class because I pulled on gear to get up it.
Since 1-5 class sort of shows how steep the terrain gets, it would have been more prudent to introduce 6 as overhang rather than aid, right?
That's why I consider class 6 to be an obsolete and incorrect term.
Better? :)
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usmc_2tothetop
Mar 18, 2004, 11:42 PM
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I hope to someday have the experience to do big wall. I'm sure the exposure is an unforgetable and an unexplainable feeling. I think the one thing I need to remember is, as I evolve in my love for this sport, not to take things for granted and keep respect for the sport. The last thing I wanna be is some loud greenhorn who thinks he can chip away what he wants and knowing all from the plastic at the gym. I would like to base my success not on my rated achievments but on the mental gratification that all I need is the solitude and independant confidence. climbing is my escape and self reward. When newbies at the gym comment on my talent I explain to them that I'm in the same catagory as them and I still have so much to learn.
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maculated
Mar 18, 2004, 11:44 PM
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Kodos,
That's quite a pathetic post up there. Tongue-in-cheek or not, this is not the kind of impression I'd like to give our newer members. I say this as a mod.
I say this as not a mod: Read "Looking for Mo." Tell me it doesn't take balls. It hurts, it's scary, and its committing. I love trad routes (and not hard ones because I am always so concerned that I might fall and hurt my uterus) but aid has its appeal too. Both allow me to foray where I might not otherwise go, and each has its mental duress.
I heart the climbing, and I heart the cams. A #4 came in the mail today! YAY!
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drkodos
Mar 19, 2004, 12:09 AM
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In reply to: Kodos, That's quite a pathetic post up there. Tongue-in-cheek or not, this is not the kind of impression I'd like to give our newer members. I say this as a mod. I say this as not a mod: Read "Looking for Mo." Tell me it doesn't take balls. It hurts, it's scary, and its committing. I love trad routes (and not hard ones because I am always so concerned that I might fall and hurt my uterus) but aid has its appeal too. Both allow me to foray where I might not otherwise go, and each has its mental duress. I heart the climbing, and I heart the cams. A #4 came in the mail today! YAY!
T'was not tongue in cheek, but my actual thought on the state of todays' aid climbing scene.
I doubt that anyone with more than 20 walls of experience under their belt would disagree. If so, I encourage them to engage me in discourse without resort to calling me pathetic. But I will take on that challenge as well. I stand by my statements, and allow others to disagree.
However, next time I would prefer to rhetoricaly enagage someone using something other than a set of hurt feelings with which to attack my position.
Allow people to have disagreements without personalizing things. Or is it the new direction of the site to only post with a psychophantic reply?
This is a great illustration of the potential problem when mods enter the fray. They get their feelings hurt and then respond with a personal attack (like any other user?!). Then if I defend or counter too strongly, I run the danger of having other mods defend their brethren just based on boundaries. It is most often a lose/lose situation.
Instead of fighting with you about my opinions and my priviledges of expressing them, I suggest you re-read my original post with the knowledge that it was not aimed you. However should you find that the shoe fits, I am always happy to recommend other quality footwear as well.
It should be clear that these are my opinions.
I am not an official member of the site. In the sense that I am not a mod or admin or anything that represents an official line of thought, editorial process, or general reflection of the sitie's attitudes.
I am just a regular and registered user (albeit it a highly prodigious and prolific one on both the hard climbing front and the insane-amount-of-time-spent-here-front).
In my original post I stated the majority. I use words such as most.
Majority means more than half. It does not mean all. I feel that the general amount of greenness and gumbism it is closer to 90 percent, but that is open to argument.
Statistics published on this site state that 50 percent of todays climbers have two years experience or less. Do you dispute that as well?
I did not get into YOUR intentions, for I do not know them.
As for the beginners on this site, why not let them see reality, instead of some sanitized version of it.
IS the site going to have a:
Sanitized For Your Protection Sticker attached now?
".....spare me your poisioness, personal barbs, Major West."
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doki
Mar 19, 2004, 12:19 AM
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kodos:
Aid climbing was bada$$ 20 years ago, but today, it is the realm of the wannbee greenhorns that don't have the nads to free climb hard stuff.
Do you think that the pin scar didnt help you guy's to get up in any (BIG WALL) trade routes by freeing it? Tell me now?
Attention free climber PIN SCAR is OFF dont jam your two,three finger on it!!! I'm in the wrong crowd!!!! :arrow:
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the_antoon
Mar 19, 2004, 12:34 AM
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In reply to: ...Since 1-5 class sort of shows how steep the terrain gets, it would have been more prudent to introduce 6 as overhang rather than aid, right?...
The Yosemite Decimal System was not created in regards to the steepness of the terrain It had to do with the difficulty of the terrain.
The Yosemite decimal system actually started out having only 5.1-5.9. 5.9 was the hardest, anything harder (impossible to climb without the use of gear) was rated a 6 (aid climbing). Well people kept climbing harder and more aggresive routes which lead to the expansion of grade 5. Now we have 5.10, 5.11, 5.12, etc. As people kept climbing more aggresive routes, the 6th grade began to fade because a lot of climbers could climb what most considered to be a grade 6 (impossible). For some reason they decided that because somebody potentially COULD climb the route, it was not a grade 6. So until someone does climb it, we will call it grade A.
I have spoken.
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doki
Mar 19, 2004, 12:36 AM
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I forgot! 20 yrs. ago aid climber are bada$$ and they free climb hard! Harder than anyone else here! Free climb hard stuff w/out sticky shoes! Thats Hard!
Anyone have nad's to free climb herd stuff with their army boots!!!
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drkodos
Mar 19, 2004, 12:36 AM
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In reply to: kodos: Aid climbing was bada$$ 20 years ago, but today, it is the realm of the wannbee greenhorns that don't have the nads to free climb hard stuff. Do you think that the pin scar didnt help you guy's to get up in any (BIG WALL) trade routes by freeing it? Tell me now? Attention free climber PIN SCAR is OFF dont jam your two,three finger on it!!! I'm in the wrong crowd!!!! :arrow:
Of course the pin scar helped.
But I don't think Hybrid Aliens existed.
My man: My Best time (out of 3 ascents) of the Nose (2 days) is wussified compared to Hardings original ascent. Agreed?
Doing that sheet first is more hard core....agreed?
Doing it for the 50th ascent in 1975 is more hardcore than the 10.000th ascent in 2000 whatever...agreed?
Not having one's hand held by the likes of a Passthespringloadedcammingdevices is more bada$$ than having it held...agree on that one as well?
How many people free climb Moonlight Buttress?
How many aid it?
Are you telling me that my aid ascent of it is as Bada$S as someones free ascent of it?
Deal with it people.....
Do not look into mirrors if you can't take the eyes looking back at you.
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doki
Mar 19, 2004, 12:39 AM
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I forgot! 20 yrs. ago aid climber are bada$$ and they free climb hard! Harder than anyone else here! Free climb hard stuff w/out sticky shoes! Thats Hard!
Anyone have nad's to free climb hard stuff with their army boots!!!
You better stop talking and climb!!! PEACE!!!!!!!!!!!
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maculated
Mar 19, 2004, 12:44 AM
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I've edited this because I do not want to get into a flame war.
In reply to: I doubt that anyone with more than 20 walls of experience under their belt would disagree. If so, I encourage them to engage me in discourse without resort to calling me pathetic. But I will take on that challenge as well. I stand by my statements, and allow others to disagree. . . This is a great illustration of the potential problem when mods enter the fray. They get their feelings hurt and then respond with a personal attack (like any other user?!). Then if I defend or counter too strongly, I run the danger of having other mods defend their brethren just based on boundaries. It is most often a lose/lose situation.
Don't pull the mod card. Anytime you disagree with me you going to worry about my mod friends running in to ban you? They might agree with YOU. I am so tired of the mods versus users thing. Keep pulling it and see where it gets you: nowhere. I won't play.
In fact, to use your own phrasing: "I encourage users to engage me in discourse without resort to playing the mod card."
My mod statement stands. I don't think that saying that it anyone can do it is something you should say to any newbie, be it sport, trad, bouldering, aid, or basket weaving. I'm an idealist in some respects and in the climbing world, I like to allow eager folk the chance to try stuff out without running up against negativity. This person is interested in aid. Yay for them! Welcome to the wonderful world of climbing! As long as you're getting up high, I salute you!
The rest of it is my own personal opinion. Are my feelings hurt? Do you honestly think that your opinion is going to stop me from doing an aid route tomorrow or the next day? Am I cowering in the corner? Nope.
In reply to: Instead of fighting with you about my opinions and my priviledges of expressing them, I suggest you re-read my original post with the knowledge that it was not aimed you. However should you find that the shoe fits, I am always happy to recommend other quality footwear as well.
Kodos, look at the ticklist I have on this site. I don't climb hard. I physically can't ever climb hard. But I don't aid climb because I have to do something other than twiddle my thumbs when I run out of 5.10s. I didn't take your comment personally even if you wish that I did.
In reply to: As for the beginners on this site, why not let them see reality, instead of some sanitized version of it.
How about letting them make up their own minds, Rogerian style? Or would you like to claim that YOU KNOW ALL AND SEE ALL?
I'm out.
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jello
Mar 19, 2004, 12:51 AM
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DRKODOS, Aliens are not just used by aid climbers...........Duh! I'm sure your not up on the rock holding a stance, steel protection dangeling off your gear sling, hammer in hand trying to place some pro. :shock: All climbers benefit equally from technology. Oh yeah, I don't think any REAL monkey would even need to place pro on most free climbs. :lol:
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usmc_2tothetop
Mar 19, 2004, 12:57 AM
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Wow I really sparked something here. I will say this.
drkodos wrote: "As for the beginners on this site, why not let them see reality, instead of some sanitized version of it."
I think peoples views are interesting as well.
yea there are some newbies giving climbing a bad name...hopefully I'm not one of them.
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