|
|
|
|
timpanogos
Mar 21, 2004, 4:05 AM
Post #1 of 18
(3125 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 17, 2002
Posts: 935
|
For all of you dreaming about Russian Aiders – Some observations:
As you likely already know, I was aiding our local gyms lead wall this winter. They would not let me use my Russian aiders because of the hooks – the owner was afraid I would fall and take chucks out of his wall – thus, I hit the Yates wall ladders hard. – including Karl’s (and others) 2 and 3 aider method.
Last weekend – on my outdoor project area – I took the wall ladders. Today I took the Russian Aiders and one wall ladder.
I wanted to see exactly how much higher the Russian Aiders allowed me to reach over the Ladders.
Observation 1
If I’m in the highest rings of the Russian aiders – this is equal to being in the second steps of the ladders! Thus the ladders have another step, plus the hero loop (and if your Kate – the handle) above the Russian Aiders reach.
Now, I have never jumped into the hero loops, but I have hit the first steps of the ladders before. The hard part is that you have to actually let out some Adjustable Daisey length (about 4” for me) to be able to stand up in the ladders first step. Of course this makes for a very high stepping cam-over until you end up being able get your balance with the adjustable position. I’ve only been able to do this if I had something on the wall I could use my hands for an assist. Anyway, I digress.
Observation 2
With the Russian Aiders – when you are in the top loops – the only position that you can really take is heels together, toes into the wall – the loops force you to keep your knees, no more than about 3” apart. With the ladders, being in the equivalent 2nd steps – you can actually kick one leg or the other out quite a bit in a stemming type fashion – sometimes even having the stemmed leg as high or higher than the pro. Sometimes that wonderful heels together, toes jammed just does not work – and you just can not stay in those top rings with one leg for long.
Observation 3
With the C3 type placements I’ve been playing with, bounce testing beyond a good solid waist bounce has become more important to me. With the Russians, you can clip a biner in a loop and get great bounce testing, but the binner is then in the way for normal movement, so you have to continually add/remove the testing binner.
Observation 4
Nothing is less of a custerfeck than Karl’s two/three aider method. Even though the Russion trees are so thin – they are still long webbing that always seems to end up in the wrong place at the anchors. It is nice to just get those ladders out of the way when you are done with them. Sure, drop them and cry.
Observation 5
The Russians do bite into your calves, and I often fight the foot loop to keep it in the right position – often times it will actually come right off your foot (with a danger of loosing the whole cuff)
Russian setup
As some might ask – my led binner is in the adjustable so I can pull up as high as possible. I have a locking biner in the adjustable that the trees are tied into, so yes, I’m loosing 3” of reach. I have tried putting them all together but the led binner is just to congested – stiff, with little movement – this also stresses the bar tacks on the tree/daisy in a dangerous way.
I need to try more high stepping comparisons between the two – to see if the Russians actually feel more stable in the top rings, and if I could stay there longer than in the ladders. I only had one ladder with me today, so I could not compare the 2nd steps stability of them against the Russians.
Interesting eh?
Chad
|
|
|
|
|
holdplease2
Mar 21, 2004, 4:19 AM
Post #2 of 18
(3125 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 18, 2002
Posts: 1733
|
Hey Chad:
Thank you for taking the time to write this report. I have never tried these, but am curious, gearhead that I am. Sounds like you have been having some fine adventures lately, its been good reading, for sure!
:)
-Kate.
|
|
|
|
|
brutusofwyde
Mar 21, 2004, 7:39 PM
Post #3 of 18
(3125 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 3, 2002
Posts: 1473
|
Yes you can get higher in regular aiders. IF you're on a wall less than overhanging, or if you have something to grab.
On an overhanging wall with nothing to grab, I disagree with your findings. This is where Russian Aiders rule the roost, and extend my reach by almost a foot. And this is exactly the kind of situation I usually find myself in when I'm three days up some A3 El Cap route.
On difficult aid I use 3 or 4 aid trees. "Knees locked together" is no longer a problem.
Preferences will obviously differ.
For me, I won't go up El Cap without Russian Aiders.
Brutus
Out of respect for Chad, edited to remove comment that could have been taken wrong.
|
|
|
|
|
mike_ok
Mar 21, 2004, 8:34 PM
Post #4 of 18
(3125 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 21, 2003
Posts: 345
|
Hey since you don't like your Russian Aiders can I buy them?
|
|
|
|
|
timpanogos
Mar 22, 2004, 12:41 AM
Post #5 of 18
(3125 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 17, 2002
Posts: 935
|
Brutus,
Yea, I was on some vertical today with the ladders - if you can at least get your body close to the wall after standing up- things are ok - but I could see that the calve leverage would be very good on overhanging.
The only super real overhanging i have done was in the gymn - it was very overhung - but I was able to use plastic. I did play with various levels of helping myself however - I did find that using an adjustable fifi, and synching it right up tight for second stepping the ladders worked fairly well - but it was like free climbing overhang - the opposition pressure of the fifi with much body tension does give you a few seconds - but you are not going to be hanging there fiddling with a placement - better be a cam or easy nut to grab.
I was not trying to bash or anything, just making some observations - I'll keep this is mind on over super overhung.
Thanks
Chad
|
|
|
|
|
brutusofwyde
Mar 22, 2004, 1:30 AM
Post #6 of 18
(3125 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 3, 2002
Posts: 1473
|
Yah, I understand, and no worries, eh?
Highest reach is standing tiptoe on a pin.
Next is subaiders.
With the russkies, I've hooked directly into rivet hangers and gained about another three or four inches over what's available via the top rings.
and hey -- if you're selling, let me know!
:D
|
|
|
|
|
timpanogos
Mar 22, 2004, 3:15 AM
Post #7 of 18
(3125 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 17, 2002
Posts: 935
|
Well the title was intended to let everyone know, no I'm not interested in selling.
I learned on Russians - it's all I knew until two months ago - it's just nice to know that my aiding days are not over when they blow (binner loops are getting worn) and replacements are still not available.
Come May 17th, I'll be on El-Cap - Russians on knees - one ladder set hooked on the back of my harness - the combo should prove usefull for the a3/a4 I'm heading for (I only have one set of russian trees).
Chad
|
|
|
|
|
billcoe_
Mar 30, 2004, 5:09 AM
Post #8 of 18
(3125 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 30, 2002
Posts: 4694
|
Thanks for the discourse everyone.
If you had to choose one set Tim, which would it be? (Brutus was very clear! :lol: )
Tim: that was a great share you did with the cam hooks, real sweet pics!!
Thank you so much from everybody!
Regards;
Bill
|
|
|
|
|
tim
Mar 30, 2004, 5:32 AM
Post #9 of 18
(3125 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 4, 2002
Posts: 4861
|
In reply to: Observation 3 With the C3 type placements I’ve been playing with, bounce testing beyond a good solid waist bounce has become more important to me. With the Russians, you can clip a biner in a loop and get great bounce testing, but the binner is then in the way for normal movement, so you have to continually add/remove the testing binner.
Not the case! Use a small wiregate (neutrino) or a Petzl Spirit and you can flip the biner down out of the way. It doesn't interfere with the hook then.
There are stunts you can pull with Russians (eg. hooking the loop of an Alien) that just aren't possible with ladders. Also, I find free climbing a lot easier with the russians, since you can just chain the rings onto your daisy biner, clip it into your harness loop, and it's out of the way. Much less chance of snagging than with aiders (IMHO of course).
I don't climb A4 (or real A3 for that matter) so I have no input on hard aid.
Just some observations from trade routes.
|
|
|
|
|
timpanogos
Mar 30, 2004, 1:50 PM
Post #10 of 18
(3125 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 17, 2002
Posts: 935
|
For my upcoming trip to the Ranch - I'll wear my russians - should have 4 trees by then (only have two now).
I believe Brutus is right about the overhanging - and the comments on going to free (if you can leave a tree) I believe is also true. I have found you want to be able to undo your adjustable daisy and still step up out of a tree - leaving it behind for going to free.
|
|
|
|
|
lambone
Mar 30, 2004, 4:18 PM
Post #11 of 18
(3125 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 1, 2003
Posts: 1399
|
What "Ranch?"
I really hope your not talking about W.S.R. If so, good luck man...yer gunna die.
|
|
|
|
|
timpanogos
Mar 30, 2004, 4:50 PM
Post #12 of 18
(3125 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 17, 2002
Posts: 935
|
Yep, Wyoming Sheep Ranch – 19 pitches of a3, 4 pitches of a4
Well, I hope my non-paying, unofficial sponsor does not mind me quoting him here:
“Naw.... calculated foolishness. Get your money in when you have the best of it.... get out when you don't. Smart gamblers creed.
Plus, when your number is up, it's up. It don't matter how safe you are. Might as well live a little before they toss the sod on ya. And furthermore, who says this gig called life is all that great anyway?
NEXT!
As Walt Shipley and Hendrix used to say, "Don't be late!"
see ya on the other side,”
Russ Walling
This in response to a pm I sent him on what a crazy bugger he was - in regards to leading solo n a static 8mil on a modified grigi, cause hell it will slip and bit anyway ....
I could not argue the thought.
Why do you think I’ve been projecting that a1 crap?
Hell, what’s a little a3? I’ll watch the a4 leads.
Chad
|
|
|
|
|
brianinslc
Mar 30, 2004, 5:00 PM
Post #13 of 18
(3125 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 13, 2002
Posts: 1500
|
In reply to: There are stunts you can pull with Russians (eg. hooking the loop of an Alien) that just aren't possible with ladders. Also, I find free climbing a lot easier with the russians, since you can just chain the rings onto your daisy biner, clip it into your harness loop, and it's out of the way. Much less chance of snagging than with aiders (IMHO of course).
I've made the switch as well. Hookin' gear with the knee hook is a nice advantage for a little extra reach. Almost too easy to free climb out of (!). Only issue with snagging is every once in a while, I won't pull the daisy/rings out of the way, and they'll jam in a crack (very hard to get undone sometimes, especially if you've passed the placement...ugh...). Lessons learned.
I still use a lightweight aider on occaision, for the seldom needed aid move. But, for full on, gimmie ruskie aiders. Although, I think I'll be taping them on, that velcro is kinda wimpy.
Brian in SLC
|
|
|
|
|
lambone
Mar 30, 2004, 5:03 PM
Post #14 of 18
(3125 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 1, 2003
Posts: 1399
|
"Yer gunna die" is just something people yell at you from the meadow while on El Cap. Best not totake them to seriously...
|
|
|
|
|
sspssp
Mar 31, 2004, 9:51 PM
Post #15 of 18
(3125 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 2, 2003
Posts: 1731
|
In reply to: - and the comments on going to free (if you can leave a tree) I believe is also true. I have found you want to be able to undo your adjustable daisy and still step up out of a tree - leaving it behind for going to free.
I haven't been able to try out Russians, yet (unfortunately), but I was thinking that the transition from aid to free should be easier.
Why can't you clip a sling into the piece, hook your foot clip into the sling, clean the tree and then free climb out of it? This sounds easier than trying to stand in a sling and cleaning a standard aider. Or is it going to be about the same?
|
|
|
|
|
mike_ok
Mar 31, 2004, 9:53 PM
Post #16 of 18
(3125 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 21, 2003
Posts: 345
|
Other option would be to hook directly into the thumb loop of an alien or zero or nut, etc.
Edited to fix quick typing mistake. Thanks timpanagos.
|
|
|
|
|
timpanogos
Mar 31, 2004, 10:35 PM
Post #17 of 18
(3125 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 17, 2002
Posts: 935
|
don't tip over :shock:
oh, i guess you mean hook - not binner clip - which you could - but don't tip over.
|
|
|
|
|
doki
Mar 31, 2004, 10:49 PM
Post #18 of 18
(3125 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 28, 2002
Posts: 123
|
Nice chad!!! I think you should bring that at camp 4 this season........
I love to give it a shutttttt!!!! Lemme know if your going to the valley....
PEACE!!
DOKI
|
|
|
|
|
|
