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climbersoze
Mar 24, 2004, 4:04 PM
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OK... I have a pair of Petzl Ascenders, and I was screwing around a few weekends ago, and I tied a line to a large oak tree and tried to jug with my Petzls... I have never aid climbed before but I would like to do it eventually on a broader scale, and I also like to know how to escape situations - and being able to jug a line is key, IMO.
I know this sounds n00bish, but anyway... here is the situation.
*I rigged the line to a tree with about 20 feet of free hanging rope.
*I don't have aiders, so I tied a couple of slings to act in their stead (and I did stagger my foot placements).
*Clipped slings to the bottom of the ascenders.
*Clipped in to the ascenders via girth hitched sling from harness to ascender
*I rigged a left foot sling (aider) to left hand ascender and right sling - right ascender
I know I got the length wrong because my top arm was flaming after flailing around for a few minutes but that is not the point of my question.
My question is really this... aside form the fine tuning, and using actual aiders/daisy chains, and getting the lengths right.... When ever I moved my top ascender up the line it went fine, because there was tension on the rope form my bottom ascender. But then tried to move the unweighted bottom ascender up the line, the cam would not let go of the rope and I had to take my hand "out" of the ascender and grip the camming mechanism and let tension off the cam to be able to slide it up the rope.
Needless to say, I got tired pretty quick... can you guys give me some insight onto what I was doing wrong, and perhaps a better method for jugging the line.
Like I said.. this is a very "rookie" question, but I want to start playing around with aid... and this is bugging me.
Final note... I know cavers jug for a living, so any cavers out there... if you can explain how you rig, that would be great.
Pictures, and detailed instructions, or web links are MUCHO welcome.
Thanks...
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junnos
Mar 24, 2004, 4:10 PM
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To get the bottom jug to slide up the rope with ease I just slightly un-cam it (not all the way) with my thumb and move it up. This lets you keep your hand in the jug and is not strenuos at all :wink: . As you get higher, the rope becomes heavier making the bottom jug slide up without assistance.
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bandycoot
Mar 24, 2004, 5:02 PM
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If you are clipped into both jugs, then you might not want to release the cam on the bottom one since it is a type of backup. Make sure that when you hang, the attachment is short/long enough that the top jug is in reach! This is fundamental. That way, you can just hang, grab the rope below the bottom ascender, slide it up, and easily grab the top ascender again with NO EFFORT. I'm not a pro, but I've done a little bit of jugging and one wall. My experience is that not much past 20' of rope and the weight of the rope is enough to keep the cam from lifting the rope.
Josh
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j-tha-b
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Mar 24, 2004, 5:23 PM
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i think that they may be designed with the idea of all the rope below the climber to be freehanging. the weight of the rope would un cam it and it owuld slide easier. or something
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junnos
Mar 24, 2004, 5:25 PM
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That's just it. You are NOT releasing the cam. You are simply just giving it a nudge with your thumb in an upward motion while you slide the jug up. Therefore if the top jug was to fail, the bottom one would not come off the rope. If you have to let go of the top ascender, reach down, grab the rope, and then move your lower ascender up you are wasting valuable time. Think "Efficiency".
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piton
Mar 24, 2004, 5:37 PM
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In reply to: If you are clipped into both jugs, then you might not want to release the cam on the bottom one since it is a type of backup.
i thought the back up should be a clove hitch or a figure 8.
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junnos
Mar 24, 2004, 6:34 PM
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Piton,
You are 100% correct.
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climbersoze
Mar 24, 2004, 6:45 PM
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OK... Junnos... that is what I was doing, but I was curios about the saftey of the situation (was I doing it wrong, thus forcing me to do it that way). I know not to remove the ascender from the rope, and my points of attachement were left ascender, right ascender, plus prusik backup. So I felt it was safe to "lightly uncam" the unit before sliding it up.
good point about the weight of the rope... didnt think about that.
Also, bandycoot... I was trying what you talked about, but I did have my length to my top ascender all jacked up, so it was not helping me at all.
Just a note... I am not taking anything posted for gospel, just looking for feedback. I do plan on getting someone experienced to help me out, but I like to have a little knowledge before driving someone nuts with questions...
OK... so back to the other half of my question... what about cavers... anybody know how cavers rig for ascending a line? I have seen it rigged (from a distance) where both aiders are on the bottom ascender, and the top is just daisied to the harness... anybody have any experience with this system?
And thanks so far for the feedback.
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junnos
Mar 24, 2004, 7:04 PM
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Well,
Personaly I never felt unsafe sliding the bottom jug up with a twitch of the thumb. A prusik for a back-up? Seems overkill to me. Just (as you get higher and have the available rope to do so) pull up some rope, tie an 8, and clip it to a locker on your belay loop. There is your back-up. Jugs give, the 8 will stop you. If logging in countless hours and thousands, upon thousands, upon thousands of feet is not experience enough for you, then I am sorry.
As for cavers, I believe they use the "Frog System" mostley. Do a search for it on this site, and guareented you'll find what you want to know. Try going here.
http://** Index To Dr. Piton Stuff **
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bandycoot
Mar 24, 2004, 7:32 PM
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piton, you're right, that's why I didn't call it the only backup, but I'd rather not fall onto the knot since I don't tie them every 2'. Most of the jugging I've done hasn't had the problem above.
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junnos
Mar 24, 2004, 7:38 PM
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Yeah bandycoot,
I think I heard of ONE story were the jugs gave and someone fell into oblivion. I mean I'm sure it has happenes, but how often really?
Brings upon a good question. Anybody know for sure of this happening :?:
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bsignorelli
Mar 24, 2004, 8:09 PM
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In reply to: OK... I have a pair of Petzl Ascenders
That was your first mistake :)
Get a Croll or use your gri-gri as a chest ascender. Makes life much easier for jugging a free hanging rope.
In reply to: But then tried to move the unweighted bottom ascender up the line, the cam would not let go of the rope and I had to take my hand "out" of the ascender and grip the camming mechanism and let tension off the cam to be able to slide it up the rope.
Doesn't sound like anything was wrong. You need to get a few feet off the floor before the weight of the rope can pull the rope through your ascender.
If you use a Frog System you can pinch the rope between your feet or you can use a foot cam (Petzl sells one specifically for this) to grab the rope for you.
Or you can "self start" and run the tail of the rop between your feet and then back up to your hands. That way when you sit you take out the slack then when you stand you will be pulling the rope through the ascender during the standing motion.
Rinse lather and repeat until you get 15-20 feet off the ground then its all good.
In reply to: a better method for jugging the line.
For a free hanging line give the Frog System a good try. The chest harness that Petzl makes (Torse) works wonders for keeping the Croll oriented properly.
In reply to: so any cavers out there... if you can explain how you rig, that would be great.
Frog System - 1 handled ascender (or Basic ascender), 1 Croll, 1 chest harness, 1 foot loop(s), 1 double cows tail (to connect you to the handled ascender and to let you pass knots/rebelays easier)
This is a pretty good link... http://www.orgt.gatech.edu/caving/frog/frog.html
The book "Alpine Caving Techniques" or "On Rope" are great references for ascending ropes and other single rope techniques.
Bryan
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timpanogos
Mar 24, 2004, 8:19 PM
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I did a fair amount of jugging this winter. I own a lot of gear but only own ONE handled ascender.
If you want the easiest form of jugging (i.e. you asked about cavers) they use the Petzl Croll (frog system)
http://www.petzl.com/petzl/SportProduits?MotRecherche=Quick+Search&pays=0&Langue=en&Activite=0&Famille=12&SousFamille=0&Produit=123&Conseil=&ProduitAssocie=122
Locker this baby right to your waist, hook your feet loops into the top jug daisy yourself to the top jug (incase you fall out of loops). Two double length slings tie them both together with an overhand knot leaving about a foot loop (both slings) for lockering into the upper jug this length is almost perfect for me YMMV I like the thin spectra double lengths for this.
As for the rope not self feeding on the bottom jug do this (assumes feet are connected to upper jug).
1. weight is on waist (lower jug)
2. push your upper jug to reach limit, forcing you to bend your knees.
3. while sitting here resting, pinch the rope between your feet (I do it at my heels, others use toes)
4. standup/pull up.
5. repeat about 3 times (with croll anyway) and the rope will now be heavy enough to self feed.
Dont get discouraged jugging is very awkward at first, but will quickly become second nature.
Just my preference but I personally would not diddle with the trigger while jugging. From time to time, you will go to weight the top jug and your hand will be on the trigger, causing it to slide a few inches scares the crap out of you, and lets you know just how easy it really is to come a whipping down the line on a disengaged jug especially remember this when traversing notice the special holes, top and bottom for extra binner attachements learn how to use these! Once again for me I think its a bad habit to play with those triggers I get in the habit of staying way away from them with my hands.
When you get going, you may find that its actually easier/better to grab the upper jug with both hands over the top of the jug (not even using the handle).
One more caver trick:
The torse used in conjunction with your croll if you dont buy this unit, make something similar your goes around your neck and connects to the top of the croll. http://www.petzl.com/petzl/SportProduits?MotRecherche=Quick+Search&pays=0&Langue=en&Activite=0&Famille=12&SousFamille=0&Produit=123&Conseil=&ProduitAssocie=122
When you stand up, it pulls the croll up helps the rope feed real sweet (i.e. after 3 moves or so of feet help).
Once advantage of the croll system (frog system), is you will also find times that you want to use your grigri for the waist assist when jugging.
Two cases come to mind; 1. cleaning overhanging or traversing pitches. 2. you have fallen, hanging in space dont know the condition of your current top piece and sure as hell dont want to fall on your toothed ascender as you jug back up to this baby (calling it your sweet baby, I love you all the way up).
Hope all this helps.
Chad
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junnos
Mar 24, 2004, 8:21 PM
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Nice links Bryan. Some of the caving gear looks real interesting.
Chad, you mentioned not messing with the trigger while jugging, because you can go to weight the top jug and cause a scary experience. There is NO REASON to mess with the top trigger. It was mentioned to slightly cam the one on the bottom jug back to make upward progress (while the top one is weighted) until the rope becomes heavy enough so you don't have to do so. I'm not bashing you at all, just making sure what I said was understood clearly. :)
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timpanogos
Mar 24, 2004, 9:01 PM
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Junnos,
fair enough, I admit - it's good to get a feel for that easy release - in fact one other trick - in this regards - which we all have found out the hard.
Don't shove your upper jugg all the way into something (gear, anchor etc.) It's like a loaded locking binner - then unloaded - you can't get the darn thing off! Always leave your self at least an inch to push the jug up and disengage the teeth.
Damn, don't you hate when that happens! - cussing self - crap, you know better than that!
Chad
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junnos
Mar 24, 2004, 9:23 PM
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Yup Chad,
I think I caught myself yelling at me quite a few times. :lol:
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climbersoze
Mar 24, 2004, 9:48 PM
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In reply to: If logging in countless hours and thousands, upon thousands, upon thousands of feet is not experience enough for you, then I am sorry.
I meant that I wanted someone to work with face to face.. not reading and trying to figure it out that way.. not trying to dis anyone with obviously an assload of experience.
Thanks.
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bouldertom
Mar 24, 2004, 10:36 PM
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Not that I know anything, but whenever I jugged, I had some problems too. The lower cam gave me trouble until the weight of the rope was enough to feed the rope through the bottom ascender. My problem is:
If you're tying backup 8s, then you negate the weight of the rope. If you don't tie backup 8s that often (to keep the rope-weight-effect) and your ascenders did come off, you'd be taking a nice long fall.
Any way around this or is it just the nature of the beast?
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lambone
Mar 24, 2004, 10:52 PM
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I don't use back up knots...I use a gri-gri under my jugs. So there is never enough weight on the rope to allow the jug to slide up freely...
What I do is thumb the cam back just slightly to relase it and push it up. It sounds like a pain in the ass, but really it's no big deal.
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timpanogos
Mar 24, 2004, 10:53 PM
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You might as well get used to tieing backup loops - rope management, stuck ropes and all.
Yep start over each time for a few moves of - hold the rope with the feet - moves, or what ever - the seat/hand deal sounded like something to try - heck you already have a hand full of rope you just tried an overhand it.
Chad
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epic_ed
Mar 24, 2004, 11:00 PM
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There are two primary reasons you'll be ascending a rope: 1) to jug back to your high point on a fixed line. 2) To clean a pitch.
In the case where you are ascending a fixed line, the gear you use to ascend will depend on the angle of the rock. If it's slabby and less than vertical, using two ascenders (like the Petzls or Jummars) is generally the most efficient way to motor up the rope. If the rock face is vertical or past vertical for most of the ascent, then using a handled ascender for your upper hand and a croll at your waiste and using the frog method is probably the most efficient.
It's a different matter when cleaning a pitch. Almost exclusively, I go with an ascender for my upper hand and a gr gri as my bottom mechanism. There are several posts about why cleaning an aid pitch with a gri gri rules, but chief among them is the ability to move either up or down on the rope at any time, and the security of using the gri gri instead of an ascender.
Ed
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timpanogos
Mar 25, 2004, 12:04 AM
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Im in this little experimentation kick of late ya know everyone always says that you can jug under vertical easier with two handled ascenders than with the frog.
I would like to borrow someones handled ascender and give this a shot having never tried it, I can not really say.
Im assuming this might be the case?
Over Vertical frog no comparison
Vertical kick one leg out on the wall frog no comparison.
Steep kick one leg out on the wall frog no comparison.
Low angle kick two legs out on the wall frog may start losing here.
Super low angle frog will lose.
Im assuming that the only reason the frog will lose out on low and super low angle is because of the angle of the rope being bound to the waist you might start getting back into the lack of autofeed mode.
Also, I know Ive been in low angle to the point you actually use hands and feet, and just kind of keep the juggs up with ya this migh be sixes?
In my limited experience Ive spent the majority of my jugging time on over vertical, vertical and steep.
Chad
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jimdavis
Mar 25, 2004, 6:49 AM
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If you use a gri-gri with the 3:1 setup you don't need to worry about this. I'm sure there are posts on this.
Basic setup is:
1 ascender with etrier + daisy to harness.
Extra biner on ascender too (we'll get back to it.)
Put a gri-gri on your harness and use it as your bottom ascender.
Put the rope from below the gri-gri and clip in into the free biner on the ascender.
Stand up, pull through slack, sit, raise ascender, repeat. Back up as usual.
It's better IMO because : a gri-gri can't open up on you like an ascender so it's safer, it's much easier to switch to lowering/ lowering out, you don't have to worry about thumbing the cam on the lower ascender to get it to move up. And I remember it being much much easier to pass re-anchors / re-belays with.
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apollodorus
Mar 25, 2004, 8:34 AM
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The original post completely misses the most important aspect of jugging when cleaning pitches: when you clean a traverse or a penji, you take the lower jug off the rope to move around the traversing line or penji. And then you are on ONE jug.
Bad. Really bad.
If the line you are cleaining wanders, use a soft 6mm perlon loop to put a prussik or kleimhest knot above the top jug, and clip it into the locker that secures that top jug to your harness. As you slide the top jug, it will push the prussik up seamlessly. That way, you always have two links on the rope, even when you pull the lower jug off to move around a piece.
And tie into the end of the rope, and tie fig-8's and clip them to your harness with a bomber locker.
This is not rocket science. It is derived from reading about accidents that have happened, and what could have prevented them.
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timpanogos
Mar 25, 2004, 2:59 PM
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Apollodorus,
Wow, no wonder I clean with a grigri and fifi I NEVER remove my lower attachment (grigri or croll) only the upper. If cleaning via grigri you are always on a non-toothed ascender for falling, and a device that is typically used for single point protection (belay/rap).
Jim, I do as you say here as well when cleaning. The problem with the lower grigri for straight out jugging (say a fixed 200 line) is that you lose about six inches to a foot of upward progress for each cycle using a grigir verses the croll upper biner + grigri + locker. It takes more energy and is slower with the grigri
Chad
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