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d.ben
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Mar 26, 2004, 8:51 PM
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I'd agree with amede TR it. But action, wtf? Does breaking out your crow bar magically repair the rock. That does no one any good. I wouldn't bolt in any area where nature is actually being preserved. But if there is a crack in a quarry in an urban area bolt the damn thing for all I care. For that matter if it's in Boulder canyon sport park. Would it really matter if someone puts 5 more bolts in? People shold base their ethics on respect for nature not their personal prefrance. I'd be most concerned with your ability to place bolts saftly. If your not experienced enough to climb the crack, your probably not experienced enough to go placeing bolts.
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atg200
Mar 26, 2004, 8:52 PM
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In reply to: Sounds like many climbers need to examine their own ethics, not that of climbing in general. If you climb a trad route and use one bolt along the way, and you are satisfied, isn't that good enough? Try climbing it next time without using the bolt. If you don't want to use it, don't. If it is out of the way for your climb, how does it affect you?
no, it sounds a lot more like you don't have the breadth of experience to question established ethics. have you ever lead a trad pitch?
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diesel___smoke
Mar 26, 2004, 8:53 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: It's like having your book while you're doing a test. You have it there you'll end up opening it. Sounds like many climbers need to examine their own ethics, not that of climbing in general. If you climb a trad route and use one bolt along the way, and you are satisfied, isn't that good enough? Try climbing it next time without using the bolt. If you don't want to use it, don't. If it is out of the way for your climb, how does it affect you? [Again, I agree that rock damage should be kept to a minimum, and I don't intend to bolt anything....I just want someone to actually give a reason, not just say 'because']
How about you're goddamn retarded? If you don't fall into the moronic, homosexual catagory known as "Sport climbing", you'll understand once you leave n00b/gumby level...
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scubasnyder
Mar 26, 2004, 8:53 PM
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if you dont feel like climbing the crack trad, top rope it, dont bolt it, theres no point
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sensortrifulcador
Mar 26, 2004, 8:58 PM
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Adding a hold would never cross my mind. Its a different story.
I agree that the rock shouldnt be damaged...
I'm starting to understand why it bothers you so much.
We are all trying to go up, antigravity!
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action
Mar 26, 2004, 9:04 PM
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In reply to: Adding a hold would never cross my mind. Its a different story. I agree that the rock shouldnt be damaged... I'm starting to understand why it bothers you so much. We are all trying to go up, antigravity!
do it...then tell me you understand...and whats up with i love all climbers everywhere? you are such a dushbag fabio...you make me laugh.
p.s. is it paz or spaaaaaz?
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scientiffikk
Mar 26, 2004, 9:05 PM
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In reply to: Sounds like many climbers need to examine their own ethics, not that of climbing in general. If you climb a trad route and use one bolt along the way, and you are satisfied, isn't that good enough? Try climbing it next time without using the bolt. If you don't want to use it, don't. If it is out of the way for your climb, how does it affect you? [Again, I agree that rock damage should be kept to a minimum, and I don't intend to bolt anything....I just want someone to actually give a reason, not just say 'because']
Easton you are missing the point. It is not about how the climber feels about his/her performance. It is about climbing ethics as generally accepted by the (so-called) climbing community, which are that you do not place a bolt when adequate natural protection exists. On a crack climb, there is almost never a time when adequate natural procteion, i.e. a place to put in gear, does not exist. Trad climbs can have bolts, if they are placed traditionally, that is, on lead by hand.
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capn_morgan
Mar 26, 2004, 9:06 PM
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those who arent opposed to bolting a crack....do you bowl with the inflatable bumpers in the gutter? Maybe you dont need them, but they are there just in case, somehow i dont think bowling leagues would like that argument.
oh yeah... SACK UP!!!
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scientiffikk
Mar 26, 2004, 9:06 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Adding a hold would never cross my mind. Its a different story. I agree that the rock shouldnt be damaged... I'm starting to understand why it bothers you so much. We are all trying to go up, antigravity! do it...then tell me you understand...and whats up with i love all climbers everywhere? you are such a dushbag fabio...you make me laugh. p.s. is it paz or spaaaaaz?
action, no need to be so hostile. Relax, guy, look over there.
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easton
Mar 26, 2004, 9:08 PM
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In reply to: no, it sounds a lot more like you don't have the breadth of experience to question established ethics. have you ever lead a trad pitch?
As a matter of fact I have not. That is why I ask before I do, so I can learn. Tight asses are what make me want to say screw the old school, I'll do it my way. I am not questioning the ethics....I am asking for more than a quip about 'because I say so' as an answer. I agree with the ethics.....maybe you could actually give an answer if you took the time to think about it, but few people have done so in this thread. All I have heard since I started climbing is to do this or that, but few people actually know why they do things a specific way. They just do what they were taught or follow the common opinion. Just because it is popular does not make it correct.
Sounds to me like you don't have the breadth of maturity to discuss a touchy subject without putting the other side down.
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action
Mar 26, 2004, 9:11 PM
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"i got a right to be hostile...my people have been persecuted" chuck D / public enemy :lol:
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sensortrifulcador
Mar 26, 2004, 9:13 PM
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Fabio... relax, youre a funny kid "Action' so Macho!!! the man of action super trad climber, congratulations.
Common is this a discussion with rational arguments or an intestinal competition to prove youre right?
By the way Paz means peace...
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easton
Mar 26, 2004, 9:13 PM
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[quote="diesel___smoke
How about you're goddamn retarded? If you don't fall into the moronic, homosexual catagory known as "Sport climbing", you'll understand once you leave n00b/gumby level...
Yet another wonderful example of the well planned arguments the climbing community puts forth when a self-acknowledged newbie asks a simple question. Grow up, think for a second, and try answering the question, not just insulting anything that appears to have a bigger brain than you. If this is how my questions are responded to, why should I bother to ask? Bottom line, I want to learn. If you guys want to flame every new question, there will end up being a lot of ignorant climbers out there doing things the way you don't like. Try educating, not insulting.
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slablizard
Mar 26, 2004, 9:16 PM
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[quote="easton"][quote="atg200"]
screw the old school, I'll do it my way. I am not questioning the ethics....I am asking for more than a quip about 'because I say so' as an answer. I agree with the ethics.....maybe you could actually give an answer if you took the time to think about it, but few people have done so in this thread. All I have heard since I started climbing is to do this or that, but few people actually know why they do things a specific way.
Research the meaning of the word "ethic".
Then you can go up and climb the crack using glue on your body for what I care. The point is that climbing was invented a long time ago, with some rules. I do respect them and I expect others to do the same.
You want to do it your own way? Reinvent the wheel? Fine, don't ask advice here then, just do it.
The answer to your question is easy, you do it that way because is more committing, harder and more satisfying. It's like the difference bethween TR and leading.
Capish?
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action
Mar 26, 2004, 9:17 PM
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paz...i'm outta here brah
gonna find your pitty on the runny kine...SA - DA - TE
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easton
Mar 26, 2004, 9:23 PM
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As I have said twice, I do capice....I agree, I don't want to bolt a classic trad climb. If you choose to quote me at least 'sack up' and quote the whole line. I never said: " I say screw old school."
Why not make a climb accessible to as many people as possible? If there is a 5.x crack that I can climb with a TR, but don't have the skill to do it on trad lead, that is my problem. Putting a bolt doesn't make the climb any easier, or make the trad lead any easier. If you choose to cheat on a trad lead and use the bolt, that is your choice.
It is a correct statement that I do not have the experience or the skill to trad lead anything. So I don't.
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diesel___smoke
Mar 26, 2004, 9:25 PM
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In reply to: Yet another wonderful example of the well planned arguments the climbing community puts forth when a self-acknowledged newbie asks a simple question. Grow up, think for a second, and try answering the question, not just insulting anything that appears to have a bigger brain than you. If this is how my questions are responded to, why should I bother to ask? Bottom line, I want to learn. If you guys want to flame every new question, there will end up being a lot of ignorant climbers out there doing things the way you don't like. Try educating, not insulting.
Ok, sorry, I've been drinking. Why does a crack need a bolt? Generally speaking, all free climbing cracks are protectable with today's climbing gear without the need of bolts. A hole is a permanent scar. And, NEVER ADD bolts to an existing line!
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atg200
Mar 26, 2004, 9:26 PM
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easton - this stuff is hard to explain because it is an emotional subject, and it is rooted more in tradition, aesthetics, and courage than it is in practicality. some things you just have to go out and do before you understand them.
and you are an ass for saying i haven't the breadth of maturity to explain this. the simple fact of the matter is that you just need to get out there and build up the experience to have a frame of reference. the fact that you even need to ask this question speaks volumes.
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atg200
Mar 26, 2004, 9:29 PM
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In reply to: Why not make a climb accessible to as many people as possible?
you apparently do not understand even the first thing about climbing. climbing isn't supposed to be easy or accessible. if you need that, go play shuffleboard.
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easton
Mar 26, 2004, 9:32 PM
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In reply to: Ok, sorry, I've been drinking. Why does a crack need a bolt? Generally speaking, all free climbing cracks are protectable with today's climbing gear without the need of bolts. A hole is a permanent scar, why add it? And NEVER ADD bolts to an existing line.
I agree. It doesn't. If I can clip a quickdraw to a bolt, why can't I slot a cam? I concede that point. My only question was how does a bolt hurt you as a trad climber, if you maintain your ethics and don't clip it? Are there reasons, other than damaging the rock (which IS reason enough) why you don't want a bolt there.
Just trying to understand, and maybe make you guys and gals think about the why side of the question.
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action
Mar 26, 2004, 9:32 PM
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hear hear....easton will never get it...go to costa rica and hang out with spaz...you two should get along pretty good.... :D :D :D
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easton
Mar 26, 2004, 9:37 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Why not make a climb accessible to as many people as possible? you apparently do not understand even the first thing about climbing. climbing isn't supposed to be easy or accessible. if you need that, go play shuffleboard.
I would likely agree with you if i hadn't seen the positive impact a good climb can have on a person. I work with juvenile delinquents. Getting them up a climb on a real rock is the best tool I have ever used to get through to some of these kids. If I choose to challenge myself further, I go for it on lead. Once I get the tools and the skills, I'll try it on trad. In the mean time, I give mad props to trad climbers for the skill it requires. Shuffleboard doesn't go over well with a group of violent teens....too many sticks and plasic pucks.
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popol
Mar 26, 2004, 9:40 PM
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Well, this becomes the same old discussion again. Read the other threads about this item if you really want to know why a bolted crack isn't just the same...
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diesel___smoke
Mar 26, 2004, 9:40 PM
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In reply to: I agree. It doesn't. If I can clip a quickdraw to a bolt, why can't I slot a cam? I concede that point. My only question was how does a bolt hurt you as a trad climber, if you maintain your ethics and don't clip it? Are there reasons, other than damaging the rock (which IS reason enough) why you don't want a bolt there. Just trying to understand, and maybe make you guys and gals think about the why side of the question.
Seeing a bolt mere inches where one can place a bomber cam or nut is disturbing, at least to most. For me, it basicly comes down to honoring the rock and other climbers who have climbed before me, and those who will climb after me.
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action
Mar 26, 2004, 9:41 PM
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i just hope those poor violent teens are safe...let me get this straight...You are teaching these kids to climb? You should be jailed for child endangerment. BOOB
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