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autumn
Apr 4, 2004, 2:56 AM
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I dunnu if anyone has already posted about this but today at the White Mountain School Competition, this kid james I guess was checking to see when he was safe and he checked his carabeaner and I guess the rope came out and he fell straight down 45 feet and landed on his back... thats the story that they seem to think happened we wont know for sure till hes out of the hosptal... it was so scary the vibe in the building was freaky...
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jefferson
Apr 4, 2004, 3:57 AM
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I hope he's OK and heals quickly!
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orestes1724
Apr 7, 2004, 1:18 AM
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Scary stuff...Send the vibes (good ones).
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charlie53
Apr 7, 2004, 6:51 PM
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I was there last Saturday when the accident happened. It was pretty awful. The guy fell from way up on the wall. Really freaked out a lot of the other kids. I have heard that he broke both wrists. The last thing I saw was the end of the rope sliding through the top anchor. Does anyone have any info on how he became detached from the rope?
Charlie
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orestes1724
Apr 7, 2004, 7:46 PM
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hey charlie, i was there too. scary stuff.
there are a lot of rumors. from what i have heard, the poeple who were there are going to be told what happened. i'll post as soon as i know for sure (if somebody else doesnt do it first). if anyone knows more, post up.
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jakedatc
Apr 7, 2004, 8:11 PM
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Rach...
Until an official accident report comes out or a statement from the Comp. people throwing out assumptions, hear-say, "i heard from this guy that...." , just confuses and worries people.
Not to mention makes the Comp organizers look like crap before all the information is compiled and dealt with.
hopefully a good report will come out and the problems will be dealt with to prevent accidents in the future.
jake
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rockrat7
Apr 7, 2004, 11:46 PM
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yeah I was there too. it was really really scary. One of cops said he broke both his wrists and possibly injured his neck. however, I would like to know for sure what happened. If I get any information about it, i'll post. same to anyone else. I am sure we all want to know what definatley happened
-RC
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edge
Apr 8, 2004, 12:59 PM
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Hello everyone,
First the facts. James is a student at the White Mountain School and did indeed fall from the top of the wall, a height of 27 feet. He put his hands out behind him and severely fractured both wrists, which helped break the fall and probably prevented further injury. At the time we were concerned about his lower back and neck, so to be safe we immobilized him and treated him as if he had back and/or neck injuries, hence the backboard and stretcher. In fact, he has no injuries beyond the two broken wrists, which required surgery. The word that I got from the school is that he was released from the hospital on Tuesday and is currently at home with his family.
The cause of the accident is still not 100% sure, and the school is conducting an investigation to find out what happened. What we do know is that James fell, the rope came down from over the bar several seconds later, and that the locking biner on his harness was not locked when we went to his aid. At what point the biner became unlocked is not clear, and jumping to conclusions is not helpful.
I am supposed to receive a letter from the school with the results of their investigation, and only at that point will I release their findings to the general public, and on the USA Climbing website. I appreciate everyone's concerns, but relaying information without being 100% sure of the cause has the potential to do more harm than good. Please know that we will all be extra safety concious in the future and use this terrible mishap as an experience that we can all learn from.
Stay safe and climb hard,
Loran Smith
Regional Coordinator, New England North
USA Climbing
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sarcat
Apr 8, 2004, 2:04 PM
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It went from 45 ft. to 27 ft. just like that. Gotta love the rumor mill.
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charlie53
Apr 8, 2004, 2:59 PM
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I don't think anyone is jumping to conclusions here. This incident very troubling to many people, both parents and climbers. The lack of information coming from JCCA just adds to the anxiety and promotes rumors. There is nothing on www.usclimbing.org that even mentions the accident or any investigation into the cause. If JCCA wants to prevent rumors and avoid people coming to their own conclusions based on these rumors it should post an accident report on its web site as soon as possible.
Charlie
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jakedatc
Apr 8, 2004, 3:07 PM
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In reply to: I guess was checking to see when he was safe and he checked his carabeaner and I guess the rope came out and he fell straight down 45 feet and landed on his back...
In reply to: this is what i heard, is that when he cliped into his harness the biner wasnt all the way through, so when he let go at the top it just unclipped. i dont know though, there are a lot of rumors.
In reply to: One of cops said he broke both his wrists and possibly injured his neck
Now you're saying there were no rumors charlie? comee on now
Thank you Loran for the update and hopefully the investigation finds what's wrong and accidents will be prevented in the future
Jake
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edge
Apr 8, 2004, 3:14 PM
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What I meant was that it would be inappropriate for anyone, myself included, to jump to conclusions about how the biner became unclipped until the school notifies us of their findings.
I know this is troubling for many climbers and parents, as it was for myself. I have personally fielded many e-mails and phone calls concerning James injuries. As the Regional Coordinator and your liason with USA Climbing, I welcome all comments and inquiries and try to answer them as quickly and sincerely as possible.
I have remained in touch with the school, and with USA Climbing. There is alot going on behind the scenes regarding this incident, and in the next day or two we expect to have a detailed message on the website.
Again, thanks for your concern, I relate all well wishes to James through my communications with the White Mountain School.
Loran
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charlie53
Apr 8, 2004, 3:34 PM
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Jake,
I didn't say there were no rumors. Without the facts there is nothing but. That's why, I think, it is in everyone's best interests for the organization to issue a report as soon as possible.
Thanks to Loran for staying on top of this.
Charlie
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j_dub
Apr 8, 2004, 11:28 PM
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Wait.. the knot was clipped into the harness for climbing?? Why didn't he just use a figure eight knot? (they don't come unclipped).
Unless I'm reading this wrong. :roll:
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rossgoddard
Apr 9, 2004, 12:06 AM
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i have climbed a few comps, and they have had me clip in. I always added an extra locker, opposite and opposed to prevent stuff like that from happening to me.
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tetonjim
Apr 9, 2004, 1:02 AM
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:?: :!: Why was the climber clipped into his harness and not TIED IN according to very specific instructions for the harness?? Are the cilimbers required to clip in and NOT tie in?? if so, wouldn't that make the White Mountain School and anyone organizing the event somewhat responsible? If the individual's harness is of the type that is meant to be tied into and he was required to clip in, then he was made to use the equipment contrary to the why it was designed to be used. I hope everyone involved in this will wake up and realize that when teaching kids, or adults the art of climbing, that you also MUST stress safety and encourage the climber/belayeer to ALWAYS double check themselves and each other. I think and climber/belay combination that does not do the above should automatically be given "did not finish" for that climb. I'm not trying to be preachy, but I would like others input. Why do so many people use the equipment contrary to the way it was designed to be used? Why do so many people NOT double-check themselves and their partner? I bet Lynn Hill double checks herself and her partners. Climbing can be dangerous, but the element of risk can be reduced dramatically, yet accidents like the one at White Mountain School continue to happen. If the investigation does determine the cause was an unlocked biner then it goes without saying that the accident was completely avoidable and should never have happened. Am very interested in what others think about this issue
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jakedatc
Apr 9, 2004, 1:12 AM
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In reply to: I bet Lynn Hill double checks herself and her partners.
I haven't been to any roped comps before so i can't say from experience but i've heard some use biners instead. probably to speed things up.. however i totally agree with making people tie a figure 8
charlie.. im sure they are investigating as fast as possible.. personally i would have rather people had waited to report on this until the findings come out.. but soon enough a report will be out
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gavinshmavin
Apr 9, 2004, 1:30 PM
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Posted: 09 Apr 2004 01:02 Post subject: Re: White Mountain School
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Why was the climber clipped into his harness and not TIED IN according to very specific instructions for the harness?? Are the cilimbers required to clip in and NOT tie in??
____________________________________________________________
Hi TetonJim,
A lot of roped comps do this. Also, a lot of gyms do it on a daily basis without incident, and with the approval of insurance companies that specialize in climbing insurance. Pretty standard on ropes courses as well. You are right that the motivation is partly speed. Another part is actually safety.
Having said that, just tying a figure 8 on a bight and grabbing any old locking carabiner is _not_ the way most gyms do it, and for good reason.
There are locking carabiners designed specifically for gym use. These are different in three relevant ways from standard locking biners.
First, they are typically steel, and have rated strengths of about 45kn (standard locking biners are 22-30kn). Since they are steel they are also more durable. The durability is more important to gyms than the 'extra' strength.
Second, they have a very thick auto-locking sleeve on the gate. Many of them are therefore equally strong (45kn) when loaded on the short axis(whereas most standard lockers are reduced to 7-10kn when cross-loaded).
Third, many of them have a pin or some other mechanism for preventing the biner from rotating, thereby preventing cross-loading. Many gyms that use this system also tape tightly around the loop to which the biner is clipped to ensure that the loop can't contact the gate.
So not _all_ indoor "clip-in" setups are inherently unsafe. The danger, I think, is in not understanding the important differences between the safe setup outlined above and the many superficially similar _unsafe_ setups.
peace,
Gavin
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wonderwoman
Apr 9, 2004, 1:48 PM
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What a horrible accident! I'm sorry for the kid who fell, his family and friends, the witnesses and the school! I hope he's okay.
I have seen someone fall upside down and backwards from clipping in rather than tieing in for the sake of speeding things up. If someone suggested that I do it, I would say no thanks and proceed with my figure eight. It doesn't take that much time to do.
Call me old school, but it troubles me that we sometimes rely on gadgets like gri gri's or auto locking biners that we think are fool proof. I think it makes us a little lackadaisical in the safety arena.
Too many times I've seen kids in the gym using an ATC and letting go with their brake hand because they are used to using a gri gri. And the auto locker allows us to assume that there is no room for human error or gate malfunction.
I am not saying that this accident happened for any of these reasons, and it's horrible that it happened for any reason at all. It's just important that we double check everything, not rush through the safety routine, and understand how our equipment works and that it's not infallible.
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tetonjim
Apr 9, 2004, 11:32 PM
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But Gavin,
The bottom line still remains that the equipment is not being used as directed. I know of no harness that has specific instructions to attach yourself to the rope clipping into a biner. It doesn't matter if the biner is steel or not. I would guess when a harness manufacturer drop tests it's harness, they do so with the roped tied-in to the harness, not clipped. The biner adds another link to the chain and in this case a potential failure point. And as Wonderwoman stated, clipping in with a biner increases the likely-hood of flipping up-side-down. I work at the Boston Rock Gym and we do not allow biner clip-ins because it is simply NOT how the harness was meant to be used. And let's not forget that 5 seconds of double checking each other could have completely prevented this accident.
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superfox
Apr 9, 2004, 11:46 PM
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In reply to: Wait.. the knot was clipped into the harness for climbing?? Why didn't he just use a figure eight knot? (they don't come unclipped). Unless I'm reading this wrong. :roll:
It is to make things go faster. If everyone had to untie, then tie back in, that would waste a lot of time. This is the major reason, another possible reason is that the coordinators thought it would be safer, however it would have been much safer clipping in with two (opposing) biners rather than one biner.
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d.ben
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Apr 10, 2004, 12:05 AM
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First off, I 'm sorry for the boy and his injuries.
I think that if the comp organizers and the boy had the chance to do it over they would have taken the extra time for everyone to tie in to avoid any injury. Why would it matter if the biner were 45kN or 200kN? If the biner didn't fail but it unclipped. It could have been prevented if it did unclip. Why should speed be put before saftey. And if you start using 2 opposite opposed biners, locking them and checking them it's not going to be much faster than tying in. Just opinion.
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rockrat7
Apr 10, 2004, 1:00 AM
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i agree with wonderwoman. people are getting to be too lax about belaying and tying in. gir gris and locking biners are, in my opinion, not completly reliable. i think it would be safer if kids were made to tie in a comps. i go to comps and they let kids clip in to save time, however, whats one more minute if it is safer? saftey should be stressed at comps and this is not the case sometimes.
-RC
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gavinshmavin
Apr 10, 2004, 9:27 PM
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Hi jim,
Point well taken about the fact that simply double checking each other would have prevented this. I didn't mean to imply otherwise. I should also say that I'm not defending the system that was in use at the White Mountain School. I'm simply saying that it is possible to run a safe gym-climbing program using carabiners instead of tying in. Anyway, this is a good debate to be having, since gyms seem to be split about which system to use.
A couple questions/observations...
Why does clipping in make a climber more likely to flip upside down?
While it may be true that no _harnesses_ are specifically designed to be used with carabiners instead of tying in, there are _carabiners_ that are specifically designed to be used with harnesses for exactly that purpose.
Peace,
gavin
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reno
Apr 10, 2004, 9:32 PM
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In reply to: It is to make things go faster. If everyone had to untie, then tie back in, that would waste a lot of time.
I don't agree with this...
The time difference, which is minimal once you learn to tie a Figure 8 and have done so repeatedly, is minimal. Further, I feel we, as climbers, have an inherent obligation to make sure people know the right way to do things. Have the climbers tie in, untie, and re-tie. Doing it over and over and over is the path to perfection.
I'd wager the more experienced climbers amongst us can tie a Fig.8 retrace in a few seconds. That's cause they've done it so many times...
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