|
|
|
|
burp
Apr 8, 2004, 10:06 PM
Post #1 of 12
(3511 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 20, 2003
Posts: 15
|
Howdy,
Noticed the wrist injury posts this year (2004) and wondered whether the original posters (or others with similar experience or knowledge) could provide a little follow-up info based on their experience.
Follow-up as in -- What? Where? How? When? etc. since the original posts were made. Getting better? Surgery performed? Confirmed ligament/bone/tendon injury? How has the wrist been while climbing since? How do you tape your wrist or what kind of splint/brace do you use for support while climbing?
I ask due to a recent wrist injury of my own. Originally my hand was accidently sat on with the wrist cocked a little weird. Was sore for a little while, but now from time to time while climbing my wrist will feel like it is pulling apart or something (above and to the outside of the ulna or the little bump on the outside of the wrist) followed by soreness for a day or two. Usually only when I'm laying away and alot of force is coming onto the wrist. Never happens on jugs, but only when I don't have as much of my hand on the hold.
Going to a hand surgeon next week.
Scares me! In 20 years of climbing, I've always felt like I could push myself and now something seemingly out my control is limiting me. Worried that my wrist will be a permanent limitation. I remember reading once about Bob Murray's wrist problem - obviously a worst case scenario. BTW, curious what kind of brace he made for himself.
Thanks.
|
|
|
|
|
thun
Apr 8, 2004, 11:13 PM
Post #2 of 12
(3509 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 19, 2003
Posts: 201
|
I injured my wrist a little over a year ago. I was in a gym working on a boulder problem that was a bit harder than my usual level. The move basically involved a high foot left, matching on a somewhat slopy hold and then going for a hold right and back. Here's the hold i was matching on:
http://www.pusher.com/...s/Images/jabba-i.jpg
Basically I had both hands on the top of this hold and was trying to work my body right so i could statically get on the sloper to the right. In all the grunting and contorting, I heard a pop on the back of my wristdirectly at the point of pivot. I'd heard some things like that before doing somewhat similar type moves (difficult traverses), but a red flag came up on this one, although it didn't hurt at first.
I decided to keep climbing since there was no pain, assuming it was just a typical movement of tendons and that I would likely only have some swelling. I did, however take it pretty easy, and after a few easy problems decided to go home since I was feeling a bit weak. I wasn't sure if my wrist was really weaker or it was in my head. The next day I went out waterskiing and had no pain or problem skiing, but I had significant, wincing pain on two occasions messing around on the dock, at times when I would weight that arm and have my wrist in some sort of bent fashion.
The next day, I was stupid and decided to go out and do some bouldering at Roger's Park. The rock there is mostly pocketed limestone bulges, and every time I bend my wrist to get in one of those pockets and pull...OUCH :x
My wrist typically only hurt when I weighted it when it was bent, but all the computer work I do irritated it. I would often feel a hot, dull pain on the back of my wrist after work. So I took sometime off from climbing, about a month or two, and then started up again, taking it easy. I had gone to a general practice doctor during the break and he told me that it was just a sprain and that if anything was torn, it would jurt alot more than it did. He gave me a wrist brace and told me to take tylenol and drink lots of water.
As I gradually got back into climbing, the pain lingered, mostly in that dull, hot way. At this time, I was still convinced it was some type of tendonitis or sprain. Another climber recommended to me herbal remedies, most notably Arnica Montana. I tried it out not expecting any results and surprisingly, my wrist stopped hurting altogether in a matter of a week or two. My wrist stopped hurting me for a few months during the summer, but picked back up again in the fall. I'm not sure yet whether temperature played a role in this.
So this winter I found a wrist/hand specialist and had him look at it. He'd seen lots of climbers come in his office and thought it might be a tendon injury. Upon an x-ray, he determined that I had partially torn te scapho-lunate ligament, which is between the scaphoid and lunate bones in the wrist. See a diagram of the wrist bones here: http://www2.kumc.edu/...ines/bone/wrist.html
I asked what the solution was and he recommended I quit climbing. When I asked about surgical solutions, he said the only one was to perform a bone fusion surgury that would limit the movement of my wrist by 50% or so. In the mean time, he said if I were to continue climbing that I ran the risk of tearing the rest of the ligament while climbing, obviously risking a serious fall. Since I'm a big wuss who only climbs lowball boulder problems and well-protected sport routes, I didn't see this as too much of a problem. He also recommended I take glucosamine and chondroitin, which I had been doing with fair regularity for about 2 years.
That doctor visit was 3 months ago, and my climbing has changed a bit since then. Initially I was afraid of tearing the ligament all the time. My confidence also dropped and I felt weaker. Additionally, I could start to sense the dull, hot pain as it started to come on. I'd notice it after doing slopers or on any route that involved strong moves while contorting that wrist. Also, I felt really weak with that hand on overhung routes. The positive thing was that I could still do slabby routes and crimpy routes with no problem (other than my own lack of skill at slabby and crimpy routes :oops:)
I started to realize that I most likely wasn't going to become the 5.12 or V6 climber that I wanted to be, but I could at least extend my climbing career by not pushing myself so hard physically and just enjoying going climbing with my friends, most of whom are beginners. I'm not saying I started climbing only below my level, but I quit pushing the harder levels as hard and started backing off when the wrist felt weak. I still have dull pains in the back of my wrist from time to time, mostly associated with poor ergonomics at work (read: I slouch too much at work). I'm considering going to another specialist to see what they might say, but right now I'm content with the injury and enjoy climbing as much as ever.
Looking back, I'm not sure what I could have done to prevent this injury, other than avoiding plastic holds altogether. They tend to have much better grip than real rock and I've talked to several who felt that plastic was potentially much more dangerous than real rock because of this, at least in terms of tendon and ligament injuries.
So, I guess that's my story. My very long, boring wrist story.
|
|
|
|
|
burp
Apr 9, 2004, 8:40 PM
Post #3 of 12
(3509 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 20, 2003
Posts: 15
|
Thanks thun :!:
That was just the right sort of info and experience I was looking for.
|
|
|
|
|
lehrski
Apr 10, 2004, 2:10 AM
Post #4 of 12
(3509 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 29, 2003
Posts: 86
|
Not a climbing injury - but definitely affected my climbing. I broke my scaphoid (aka navicular) bone skiing at the beginning of February. I got the cast off about 10 days ago and have started back climbing. The bone feels good - no pain - but the tendons/muscles in the wrist and hand are sore and weak. Hard to take it easy and avoid overuse. It feels like it will be a while before jamming cracks feels comfortable again.
|
|
|
|
|
fireclimber
Apr 10, 2004, 3:11 AM
Post #5 of 12
(3509 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 3, 2001
Posts: 186
|
18 months of pain and weakness you can expect from any tendon and or ligament damage, sorry
|
|
|
|
|
andypro
Apr 10, 2004, 5:02 AM
Post #6 of 12
(3509 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 23, 2003
Posts: 1077
|
In reply to: 18 months of pain and weakness you can expect from any tendon and or ligament damage, sorry
I wish that were true in my case.
4 years ago I suffered a Scapho-Lunate Disassociation in my left wrist. The ligaments holding the small bones in ym wrist tore apart, and the bones kinda took a little vacation. It sucked. 6 months and 3 surgeries later I finally could start rehab, and now 4 years later I still dont have use like I did before the injury. In the last 8-10 months things have started to get better at a rapid rate though...strength has been returning faster than it has before...ti's still weak, and can be tweaked into pain easily though.
Pretty much what I've had to do is relearn how to use my left hand. I find that the little nuances that most people with good wrists can do, I cannot. micromovements, certain positions, even certian little movements I cant do (yet...I'm hoping to correct that). I also find that my hand will lose almost all strength if my wrist moves to certain exacting positions. I jsut work around it for now, but it's certainly a long long loooong path to recovery :cry:
|
|
|
|
|
fireclimber
Apr 10, 2004, 6:28 PM
Post #7 of 12
(3509 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 3, 2001
Posts: 186
|
I feel your pain andy, in most cases 18 months is the norm. I have a tendon injury to my left middle finger, this injury will never fully heal and there is at least a 205 decrease in pully strenght. it is also forever swollen. i am sorry to hear about your injury it sounds pretty horrible, climb on!!
|
|
|
|
|
thun
Apr 12, 2004, 2:05 PM
Post #8 of 12
(3509 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 19, 2003
Posts: 201
|
In reply to: Thanks thun :!: That was just the right sort of info and experience I was looking for.
glad i could help. let us know how your visit with the doc goes....
|
|
|
|
|
andypro
Apr 12, 2004, 4:24 PM
Post #9 of 12
(3509 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 23, 2003
Posts: 1077
|
Sorry, thun, I skipped over most of your post cause it was so long and I was in a hurry the first time....I do have some thigns to say about the scapho-lunate disassociative injuries that you may like.
Since your ligament isn't torn totally, you may be able to jsut get around it and not have problems. I mean..youll always have problems, but not as severe as mine were.
I lucked out with my injury in two respects. 1) I did it at work, so workmans comp paid for the whole mess (still is). 2) I had the top hand and wrist reconstructive plastic surgeon in the area working on me.
These are things he told me:
The injury is very rare (so I'm told). He had to look back into medical books all the way to the 70's to find substantial stuff to show me so I would understand what was going on. So...you and I are the 1%'ers :lol:
It happens from a twisting motion. At some point you must have put ALOT of force in just the wrong way in a twisting motion on your wrist to create the injury. I did it hooking up a "less than perfect" fuel line to a jetliner. Gotta twist them on to lock em. Stupid things :evil:
You ahve to be careful because if you end up tearing the ligament too much or all the way, your wrist will become useless. Literally wont work, and it'll tke your hand down with it.
I was given options when ti came to repair. Mine was more severe than yours, but I had a choice between bone fusion (as your doctor told you), drilling eyebolts into the scaphoid and lunate bones and lacing them together with wire, or an experimental surgery (well..it was then, I dont know about now 4 years later) that would in effect repair the ligaments. This is how that worked:
4 chisel ended wires were drilled in trhough one side of my wrist and out the other side, through the ligaments. The wires being there and causing the injury they did created scar tissue inside the ligaments and bones, and this is what now holds my wrist together. I've got some pictures and Xrays of the procedure, if you want to see them, I'll dig em out and email them to you. Let me know.
I can also give you the contact information for the doctor Schultz, the one that fixed me up. If you wanted to ask him questions or get some kind of consultation going, I'll hook you up. I was one of the first people to recieve the surgery I did and I ahve to tell you, it was well worth the aggrivation it cause in itself. I have no fusion, nothing left lingering inside my wrist, and supposedly it's back to full strength (although I beg to differ form that, and I've got the exact same misgivings you do about reinjury).
I've pulled off hard 10's and low 11's with my repair, and I'm betting if you put more time an energy into rehab than I did, you could definitly be that .12 and V6 climber you want to be. Whether you can do it without repair, I dont know. But dont give up hope. It's a suckass injury for sure, but not the end of the world.
If you want to chat more about this, or want more info on the docs or my recovery, or anyhitng like that, feel free to PM me here, or on AIM or even email me (or we could continue in this thread if you wanted). Just say something related to this or your name on here so that I dont dismiss you as junk or a bot or soemthin right away (I do that alot).
|
|
|
|
|
thun
Apr 12, 2004, 9:07 PM
Post #10 of 12
(3509 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 19, 2003
Posts: 201
|
In reply to: It happens from a twisting motion. At some point you must have put ALOT of force in just the wrong way in a twisting motion on your wrist to create the injury. I did it hooking up a "less than perfect" fuel line to a jetliner. Gotta twist them on to lock em. Stupid things :evil:
yup, the twisting is what got me.
how much pain did you feel iniitally on your injury? i felt a pop and felt weak in my wrist, but didn't get any real pain until aggrivating it doing less strenuous things the next day.
In reply to: You ahve to be careful because if you end up tearing the ligament too much or all the way, your wrist will become useless. Literally wont work, and it'll tke your hand down with it.
not fun to think about... :(
In reply to: I was given options when ti came to repair. Mine was more severe than yours, but I had a choice between bone fusion (as your doctor told you), drilling eyebolts into the scaphoid and lunate bones and lacing them together with wire, or an experimental surgery (well..it was then, I dont know about now 4 years later) that would in effect repair the ligaments. This is how that worked: 4 chisel ended wires were drilled in trhough one side of my wrist and out the other side, through the ligaments. The wires being there and causing the injury they did created scar tissue inside the ligaments and bones, and this is what now holds my wrist together. I've got some pictures and Xrays of the procedure, if you want to see them, I'll dig em out and email them to you. Let me know. I can also give you the contact information for the doctor Schultz, the one that fixed me up. If you wanted to ask him questions or get some kind of consultation going, I'll hook you up. I was one of the first people to recieve the surgery I did and I ahve to tell you, it was well worth the aggrivation it cause in itself. I have no fusion, nothing left lingering inside my wrist, and supposedly it's back to full strength (although I beg to differ form that, and I've got the exact same misgivings you do about reinjury).
thanks for all the info. i've sent you a PM with my email. much appreciated.
In reply to: I've pulled off hard 10's and low 11's with my repair, and I'm betting if you put more time an energy into rehab than I did, you could definitly be that .12 and V6 climber you want to be. Whether you can do it without repair, I dont know. But dont give up hope. It's a suckass injury for sure, but not the end of the world.).
i pretty much agree with your sentiments in your profile. to me a good day climbing is getting outside and having fun with my friends. not to say i don't enjoy a challenge, but chasing numbers isn't what it's about for me, especially after the injury. and placing pro on a 5.9 sounds like an excellent day of climbing. if only i had the money for a rack and the wherewithall to learn without killing myself...someday soon, i hope...
|
|
|
|
|
burp
Apr 16, 2004, 6:03 PM
Post #11 of 12
(3509 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 20, 2003
Posts: 15
|
Howdy!
In reply to: ... let us know how your visit with the doc goes....
Just returned from the doc. He poked around and took an x-ray. I was fortunate to have a picture (3 years old) of the exact move and my hand position on the boulder problem I did that created the last round of wrist problems a week ago Monday. Therefore, I showed that to him.
The x-ray showed good bone spacing (no ligament problems! Thank goodness). But, what concerned him and what is probably responsible for the trouble I'm having is what he termed "Ulnar Impaction". Apparently, it is not uncommon for the ulna to be a little too long. This is my case. There is a disc of cartilage at the end of the ulna (and radius?) and it can become compressed and inflammed and even torn. Kind of like the Meniscus in the knee. Compressed between the extra long ulna and the triquetrum and lunate(?). Of course, cartilage doesn't get much blood flow and heal very well. So, with this mechanical disadvantage it can wear or get inflammed to the point that the grip suffers tremendously. He has seen many athletes with the same problem that couldn't even hold onto much anymore.
For now I'm wearing a splint for a couple of weeks and taking celebrex. He also gave me a cortison injection. Hopefully, the inflammation will go down to the point that I'll have some room in there and it won't be so compressed.
As a last resort, orthroscopic surgery can be performed to grind down the end of the ulna a little bit to provide more room in there.
I'm relieved that I didn't have some torn ligaments. I'm confident that I can deal with the mechanical problems in my wrist in one way or another and be able to push through my limits on the rock.
Thanks again for all the info/personal experiences, it all helped prepare me for the Doc visit.
|
|
|
|
|
andypro
Apr 16, 2004, 7:19 PM
Post #12 of 12
(3509 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 23, 2003
Posts: 1077
|
As much as it may suck in the short term, you may want to consider the surgery (if your insurance will pay for elective surgeries that is). It could rpevent thigns from getting really bad later in life.
|
|
|
|
|
|
