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timpanogos
Mar 30, 2004, 5:50 PM
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Lambone has brought up a good topic in this thread about splitter 2-cams
http://www.rockclimbing.com/....php?p=687934#687934
I don’t want this topic lost in the depths of that thread. I would love to get others experience and thoughts on this.
It was my understanding that you should not aggressively bounce test cams.
My understanding for the reasoning here is the mechanical advantage of the cam could damage an otherwise safe and prudent placement.
I think we also need to consider C2/C3 ratings with cam placements – in otherwords – you are placing the cam – only expecting 2 or 3 kn on the piece (it’s a body weight move) – with your 6kn plus, bomber piece being 2 to 5 moves below you.
Also considering that you might be leaving a screamer on that cam.
Ok, how many of you aggressively bounce test – lets say your first 3 smallest aliens?
I have always only waist bounced cam placements – has this been out of ignorance?
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lambone
Mar 30, 2004, 6:05 PM
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waist bounnce tests are not real bounce tests. Personaly I don't like to fall, so I bounce test small cams.
I'm not too worried about the aluminum lobes damaging the granite...maybe sandstone is different.
I took a few falls on the captain last summer. All were from small cams that blew out of pin scars. I didn't bounce them hard enough. They were all clean air, but I don't like falling up there. You start moving faster and you have more chances of falling...
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atg200
Mar 30, 2004, 6:10 PM
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a waist bounce is not a bounce test, just as lambone says. there aren't hard and fast rules about this sort of thing. if i am in a straight in splitter, i don't bother bounce testing because there is no point. if i am on a small aline in a pin scar on granite, i bounce the hell out of it. if i am on a soft sandstone tower, then it all depends on how bad the rock is, how brave i feel and how much i want to do the tower really cleanly, how big the ledge below me is, and how lucky i feel.
repeat after me - there are seldom if ever hard and fast rules in aid climbing. everything, repeat EVERYTHING, is situational.
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smithclimber
Mar 30, 2004, 6:57 PM
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I'm with Atg200 and Lambone, when it comes to aiding on granite. I don't bother testing good placements (you don't test them freeclimbing, why would you while aiding on a good crack). I do bounce test them (even the tiny cams) if the placement looks sketchy.
Think about it for just a moment. If you would let that black Alien catch a fall of yours (obviously more force) then why would you be hesitant about bounce testing the thing. That would make about as much sense as telling someone "hey, don't be pulling on my top rope anchors... you might weaken it" :roll:... uhh...you are counting on it to hold, aren't you?
If you aren't going to destroy the rock, test to your heart's content.
Now, if you are concerned with blowing out the rock in soft sandstone, then you'll obviously have to use some discretion and consider what the resulting fall will be if you choose to use the "ease onto it and pray" method.
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holdplease2
Mar 30, 2004, 7:03 PM
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Not exactly the voice of experience here, but...
The one surprising aid fall I have taken was when a small cam (blue alien) blew out. I did not bounce test it because it "looked" fine...in a splitter crack, but the sandstone was pretty soft, soft enough that it shifted when I was moving around on it to go higher. (a larger cam, better technique when moving up, or a bounce test might have prevented this. Three stupid gumby things combined and resulted in a fall) Sorry, no pics of this one. ;)
It seems harder to check the placement visually with a small cam than it is with a small-ish nut. You can't always see exactly what the back lobes are doing and since they aren't necessarilly "caught" in a constriction. I am more prone to bounce small cams now that I was before.
Thanks for the discussion, guys.
-Kate.
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brutusofwyde
Mar 31, 2004, 1:52 AM
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I generally don't bounce test cams.
That includes dicey cam placements, such as a black alien with only 2 cams in the crack.
My reasoning is that there is almost always a bomber piece below me only a short fall (1-4 placements) away. Much quicker to look, at the most give it a hand jerk, get on it, race up it as high as I can, place the next piece and go. MUCH quicker.
Harder clean aid, maybe. But I generally don't push the clean aid limits too hard if the route has an "A" rating attached, because I'm a Wimp with a capital W.
If I bounce tested things like good-looking cam placements, I'd spend waaay more time on a wall than I already do. And I'm so slow anyways, that I barely get up anything anymore as it is.
Brutus
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fuzzybrandon
Mar 31, 2004, 3:33 AM
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Having been the victim of blue alien blowout, I now generally bounce hard on 'em if the fall will be bad, if it's a short, clean fall, I try to just get up on it fast. Aliens especially will wear/deform faster with lots of bouncing.
For me, placing a small, sketchy cam and testing it is faster than placing and testing a sawed angle. Camhooking faster than both, and often more secure; I've even left 'em for pro.
Granite-centric here as well.
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bigwallfun
Mar 31, 2004, 4:25 AM
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when in looks gingus bounce it hard, with enough force that you can comfortably stand in your top step
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apollodorus
Apr 1, 2004, 6:22 AM
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Bouncing is mostly for heads, bad pins, rurps and peckers.
If you stick a black Alien up there, OK, bounce it. But bouncing on any aid cam bigger than about finger is only for a blind placement.
The mechanics of a cam dictate against bouncing on it. If you place it well, and then bounce around on it to test it, you might just move it up and out of where it used to be safe. A better strategy is to place it well, step and watch it, and then move on it.
A cam is a dynamic piece of gear. Bouncing on it can cause the lobes and springs to join the party, and move the thing where you don't want it. Since C2 and higher placements are done with the idea that THIS is where the cam goes, bouncing can be a dangerous thing.
It all comes back to the failure mode of the piece. A head sticks because of enhanced friction; bouncing can tell much. A cam is more about good placement, and bouncing can move it from its ideal spot.
If the rock is friable, bouncing a cam can break off the flake before your bodyweight does. This would be a good thing. But, otherwise bouncing on cams is not a good idea.
I would say that as a general rule: don't bounce test your cams if the rock is solid. Set them carefully so that they are bomber, and then move up on them.
Bad pins and heads (there are no good heads) are not like this. You have to test them.
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atg200
Apr 1, 2004, 3:14 PM
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*cough* bull-shit *cough*
sounds nice in theory, but you are testing an awful lot of factors aside from just the cam placement. rock quality is a big if not primary concern, checking for expando, testing for user error, and lots of other factors enter in to the equation. mechanical engineering principals do not solve every problem.
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ricardol
Apr 1, 2004, 9:38 PM
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i dont bounce test cams C1 cams ..
anything else, i've bounce tested .. mostly though because i'm shitting my patns while climbing that stuff
-- ricardo
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lambone
Apr 12, 2004, 9:28 PM
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In reply to: A better strategy is to place it well, step and watch it, and then move on it.
Sounds to me like a good way to lose an eye, or a tooth, or break a nose.
I had a buddy get his front tooth knocked out by a blue TCU on the Shield Headwall. Watching a cam as a method of testing it is not the best method in my opinion...
Had an offest alien crack the top of my helmet pretty hard last week when it blew duringa bounce test...
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ammon
Apr 12, 2004, 10:10 PM
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I'm with you on that one Lambone. I have a few chipped teeth for this exact reason. Instead of looking at the piece while testing..... make a note what it looks like, look down and test and then see what it looks like after.
Just because it's a cam doesn't always mean it's bomber. If I have ANY reason to think it's not 100% bomb squad, I will test it. No matter what kind of gear it is. Yes, even hooks. Yes, quite aggressively. The trick is to be aggressive on the test, BUT... ginger on the piece your on.
I also agree there is no hard and fast rules.
Cheers
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flamer
Apr 12, 2004, 11:49 PM
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In reply to: I had a buddy get his front tooth knocked out by a blue TCU on the Shield Headwall. Watching a cam as a method of testing it is not the best method in my opinion...
DUDE!!! Was your buddy a Kiwi? I think I shared a site with him in C4 last summer...cool guy!! Did he also almost take the big ride cleaning the 3rd pitch of the trip??
josh
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brutusofwyde
Apr 13, 2004, 1:16 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: A better strategy is to place it well, step and watch it, and then move on it. Sounds to me like a good way to lose an eye
You don't wear safety glasses!?
:shock:
Brutus
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lambone
Apr 13, 2004, 6:08 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: I had a buddy get his front tooth knocked out by a blue TCU on the Shield Headwall. Watching a cam as a method of testing it is not the best method in my opinion... DUDE!!! Was your buddy a Kiwi? I think I shared a site with him in C4 last summer...cool guy!! Did he also almost take the big ride cleaning the 3rd pitch of the trip?? josh
no...different guy
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psychoredneck
May 2, 2004, 1:56 AM
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Bee carfulll up thar… I seen a guy bust is head cuz a A1 4-cammer popper riat out!!! Damn, that wusn’t too good, wuz it? He went like a 40 feet n hit is head on a lege alon thu wey… Bance est em babees and wer yer hellmut!!!! Okeey, bye.
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