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saagax
Apr 26, 2004, 8:55 PM
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The Gri-Gri has some problems as I see it, once I was top roping at the gym, it was rainning and the rope got a little wet on one end, so when my belayer started lowering me sudenly I just fell the free fall, the wet part of the rope got to the GRI GRI and it slipped, my belayer just let the GRI GRI work by itself (took off his hands from it) and I was stopped like 1 meter from the ground, quite scarry. So now when I see someone belaying with one of thos edeveces I just make sure the rope is dry.
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robgordon
Apr 26, 2004, 8:57 PM
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In reply to: The Gri-Gri has some problems as I see it, once I was top roping at the gym, it was rainning and the rope got a little wet on one end, so when my belayer started lowering me sudenly I just fell the free fall, the wet part of the rope got to the GRI GRI and it slipped, my belayer just let the GRI GRI work by itself (took off his hands from it) and I was stopped like 1 meter from the ground, quite scarry. So now when I see someone belaying with one of thos edeveces I just make sure the rope is dry.
it rains in your gym??
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crimpergirl
Apr 26, 2004, 9:02 PM
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I'll try again.
If you'd like to spend time determining who is at fault - go right ahead. I'm not arguing with you.
What I'm saying is that it is important that people understand that a grigri is not a fool-proof, always auto locking device. In those instances when it doesn't lock (wet rope; system not shocked) the belayer needs to know 1) that is can happen, and 2) what to do to make it lock. If this information is not shared, some may just foolishly assume the thing will magically lock. In that way - you are right - it is belayer error.
Is this point so difficult to get across?
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vegastradguy
Apr 26, 2004, 9:14 PM
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crimper- no, it's not difficult, if thats what you had said initially. however, you tried to blame the device for failing instead of looking to the person operating the device.
we have the same point, you are just making it poorly.
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crimpergirl
Apr 26, 2004, 9:19 PM
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Where have I blamed the device?
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curt
Apr 26, 2004, 9:29 PM
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In reply to: Yes, many "grigri" problems are the result of poor belaying - but not all of them.
and also.....
In reply to: Where have I blamed the device?
If you are not "blaming" the device itself, please clarify what else you mean in your comment above--besides poor belaying. Thanks.
Curt
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vegastradguy
Apr 26, 2004, 9:30 PM
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maybe you should read your posts again.
"I think what matters is the all grigri users know that this can (though rarely) happens. That way, if it does happen, the informed belayer can take the advice in the article and throw themselves to the ground or some other maneuver to shock the system making it lock before the climber decks. This bit of information is one that is not provided by comments like "it's the belayers fault." "
seriously. a good belayer will just do his job and not worry about why the cam didnt engage until his partner is on the ground or secure at anchor.
youre blaming the device for possible failures. your secondary point is that belayers should be informed so they can take the proper action when the grigri fails.
the real point is that regardless of what the grigri does, if you're belaying properly, it doesnt matter if the cam engages or not.
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alpnclmbr1
Apr 26, 2004, 10:04 PM
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The safety summary tip in that pdf file was a joke. If a grigri fails to lock up (the only way I have ever heard of this happening is from failing to hold on with the brake hand) your job is to grab the rope with your brake hand. If grabbing the rope fails (highly unlikely), then throw yourself to the ground. Not with the goal of triggering the cam of the grigri, but with the goal of tangling your body up in the rope.
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texastechclimber
Apr 26, 2004, 10:33 PM
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In reply to: "Let me get this right ... idiots can use it but morons shouldn't ... I bow down to another self centered sonofabeach who thinks the world evolves around their beliefs. :wtf: Sheet happens. Be glad it hasn't happened to you."
Webster's II Dictionary:
idiot n. 2. A foolish or stupid person.
moron n. 2. A very stupid person.
Sounds to me like I hurt your feelings. So which category do you fall into? The idiots or the morons. Are you that stupid that you cant see the point I was trying to make? I said, "I'd say its pretty idiot proof", as a joke. My point in saying that was that the Gri Gri is very simple to use if you have common sense. FYI: I am not self-centered nor do I think the world evolves around my beliefs. I do however get annoyed by people that use the exuse "Sheet happens" just because they were to stupid to learn how to use a GriGri properly and are putting other climbers at risk. It is fact that belay error has resulted many times in the death of a climber. Be glad it hasnt happened to you!
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meataxe
Apr 26, 2004, 11:00 PM
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The title of the thread gave me the the mental image of a grigri failure taking place... springs and rivets flying off in all directions.
I have never seen a grigri failure, myself. I have, however, seen a "grigri user failure" that resulted ina 20' fall.
Most belayers should be able to lock off the grigri with the handle locked wide open. I find there is a little less friction than an ATC-type device, but still enough to lock off.
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organic
Apr 26, 2004, 11:01 PM
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Not to contribute to this ongoing flame war but.
1. How may threads or stories do you read or hear, "My ATC failed"? The Gri Gri many be a great tool but it seems to cause problems and controversy more than any other device. And I am sure this is out of pure anger from people who hate it and not because the design of the device in some instances could be better.
2. How do you not short rope with a Gri Gri without taking your brake hand off the rope and not pushing down the cam?
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crimpergirl
Apr 27, 2004, 12:01 AM
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No, I'm not blaming the grigri and I haven't blamed a grigri. Short of the thing blasting apart or spontaneously combusting (something I've never heard a grigri to have done) grigri's don't fail to do what they are designed to do. They are designed to lock up when the system is shocked. They do that. They are awesome devices.
Anytime a climber decks it is the belayers fault. period. (Okay, there are exceptions like when a trad leader climber place sh*t pieces and pulls them while falling. That's not the belayers fault). In general, the belayer has one responsibility and that is to keep the climber off the ground. Nothing I've written says differently.
I have just tried to express that a thread that offers nothing more than saying that it's the belayers fault doesn't offer any useful information to new grigri users and/ore climbers such as the orginal poster.
I just felt it was important to point out potential situations that can happen when using a grigri. There are many people using them, or learning to use them, or even teaching others to use them who are unaware that beyond holding the device open, or using the incorrect rope size the thing doesn't always lock up (for example instances when the climber doesn't shock the system with a fall).
Now, is such a situation happens - and it has - and the climber decks, it's the belayers fault. No question. But in some instances when the device doesn't lock (aside from the obvious belay errors) the failure to lock is not the belayers fault. (Nor is it a grigri failure). Regardless, the belayer better dang well know what the f to do in a situation like that. That is all I had hoped to express to a new climber that just took a class and asked a question about grigri and decking.
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jt512
Apr 27, 2004, 3:08 AM
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In reply to: The article makes several points. And if you chose to define them as belayer error, hey knock yourself out. One point the article does make is rarely discussed in these sorts of discussions (this thread is an exception. That is that the grigri can fail to lock if the climber does not shock the system. So if the climber eases back on the rope and the belayer doesn't know it (climber failed to say take and/or the climber is not in the belayers view), the system is not shock and the rope begins moving through the device and it doesn't lock. This can result in an unpleasant fall, sometimes to the ground. Is it belayer error that the system did not shock? Is it the climbers? Does it matter?
Yes, it is belayer error, because if the belayer locks the rope off ATC-style, as he is supposed to, the increased frictional force will cause the cam to engage.
In reply to: I think what matters is the all grigri users know that this can (though rarely) happens. That way, if it does happen, the informed belayer can take the advice in the article and throw themselves to the ground or some other maneuver to shock the system making it lock before the climber decks.
That's not the solution. The solution is to lock off the rope.
-Jay
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jt512
Apr 27, 2004, 3:12 AM
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In reply to: ...had the belayer kept his hand on the brake, even if the cam didnt engage, the grigri still works like an ATC.
Not exactly. The grigri provides much less passive braking force (eg, when you thread it backward) than an ATC. However, if the belayer had locked off the rope ATC-style then the cam would have engaged.
-Jay
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jt512
Apr 27, 2004, 3:17 AM
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In reply to: How should your dominant hand affect how you belay? The gri-gri forces you to belay with the right hand on the brake end. So if you can't deal with that, don't use the gri-gri!
If a climber can't brake right-handed, he should probably find another sport, since there are the occasional belay stances which don't allow one to safely brake with his dominant hand.
-Jay
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jt512
Apr 27, 2004, 3:23 AM
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In reply to: No, I'm not blaming the grigri and I haven't blamed a grigri. Short of the thing blasting apart or spontaneously combusting (something I've never heard a grigri to have done) grigri's don't fail to do what they are designed to do.
Exactly. When used properly, they reliably perform under conditions in which they were designed to perform. Used outside those conditions, all bets are off.
-Jay
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nthusiastj
Apr 27, 2004, 4:06 AM
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People really either really love their Gri-Gri, or hate it. I love it and use it all the time. When used in conjunction with a brain, and the attention required ANYTIME you use ANY belay device, It is safe and effective. It's not that much different from a regular ATC when it's not engaged!
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saagax
Apr 27, 2004, 1:17 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: The Gri-Gri has some problems as I see it, once I was top roping at the gym, it was rainning and the rope got a little wet on one end, so when my belayer started lowering me sudenly I just fell the free fall, the wet part of the rope got to the GRI GRI and it slipped, my belayer just let the GRI GRI work by itself (took off his hands from it) and I was stopped like 1 meter from the ground, quite scarry. So now when I see someone belaying with one of thos edeveces I just make sure the rope is dry. it rains in your gym??
Well, it's not exactly raining what I have at my gym, but it is a warm place, so it has a roof and only one wall (the one to climb) so when it rains, if it´s windy, some water can reach missplaced ropes.
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overlord
Apr 27, 2004, 1:24 PM
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i decked once becasue the belayer didnt know how to use it properly.
when i fell he gripped the lead end of the rope and this prevented the engaging of grigris mechanism. we were using 10.5mm rope and i was lucky becasue it was only about 5-6m. didnt hurt anything.
the belayer knows how to use it properly now and has my full confidence. be carefull when introducing somebody to grigri. just say to them, if i fall grip the brake end and dont panick. the problem was, whe was used to have hes left as hes brake hand, but with grigri he had to use hes right.
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jammer
Apr 27, 2004, 2:24 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: "Let me get this right ... idiots can use it but morons shouldn't ... I bow down to another self centered sonofabeach who thinks the world evolves around their beliefs. :wtf: Sheet happens. Be glad it hasn't happened to you." Webster's II Dictionary: idiot n. 2. A foolish or stupid person. moron n. 2. A very stupid person. Sounds to me like I hurt your feelings. So which category do you fall into? The idiots or the morons. Are you that stupid that you cant see the point I was trying to make? I said, "I'd say its pretty idiot proof", as a joke. My point in saying that was that the Gri Gri is very simple to use if you have common sense. FYI: I am not self-centered nor do I think the world evolves around my beliefs. I do however get annoyed by people that use the exuse "Sheet happens" just because they were to stupid to learn how to use a GriGri properly and are putting other climbers at risk. It is fact that belay error has resulted many times in the death of a climber. Be glad it hasnt happened to you!
id•i•ot P Pronunciation Key ( d - t)
n.
1. A foolish or stupid person.
2. A person of profound mental retardation having a mental age below three years and generally being unable to learn connected speech or guard against common dangers. The term belongs to a classification system no longer in use and is now considered offensive
mo•ron P Pronunciation Key (môr n , m r -)
n.
1. A stupid person; a dolt.
2. Psychology. A person of mild mental retardation having a mental age of from 7 to 12 years and generally having communication and social skills enabling some degree of academic or vocational education. The term belongs to a classification system no longer in use and is now considered offensive.
Both of these word are offensive; therefore, taken in that manner. I am neither. The climber never decked or even came close. The rope did not cause the device to lock. There was no load at the time of the fall. I did use the device as an ATC and nobody was hurt, we both were just a little shaken up. This is why I stated that sh!t happens. You may look at me in any light you want. You can ignore any real life experience if you wish. It's all your prerogative. I will try to pass on some advice ... learn from other peoples mistakes so you so not make them.
Nuff said .... flame away!
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kobaz
Sep 20, 2009, 3:10 PM
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[quote "crimpergirl"]http://www.thebmc.co.uk/safety/tech/articles/grigri.pdf[/quote]
(For some reason the bbcode tags aren't working today.
This pdf is a goner. Does anyone know anywhere else that has this file (or a similar report?). There's a guy at my gym who really likes to screw around with a grigri. Things like:
Belaying a lighter climber, holding her weight by holding onto the rope above the grigri, feeding slack out of the grigri with the other hand, jumping into the air and letting go completely (giving the poor climber a sudden jerky drop.
He's the type of guy that says 'it's a grigri, she's safe'. I've seen a few grigri 'failures' in my climbing career due to belayer error. In general, grigris do lock up on their own (hell, I use them for solo-aid), but you just never know... and why would you belay without a break hand, on any device?
So anyways... I was looking for some 3rd party research/literature on grigri failures to show this guy so he doesn't maim/kill one of the nice climber girls at the gym. For some reason my advice for him to stop screwing around doesn't phase him.
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maldaly
Sep 20, 2009, 4:28 PM
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kobaz,
There is a ton in information out there regarding belay failures while using a Grigri. A forum search will get you to it. Also try a Google search.
Regarding your friend's behavior; it's bullshit and since he didn't respond to your advice, you should report it to the gym manager immediately. He is putting his girlfriend's life and body in danger AND is putting the gym at risk.
Climb safe,
Mal
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kobaz
Sep 20, 2009, 5:36 PM
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I was doing a forum search before I posted. I turned up this thread, and not many others of interest. I'll poke around some more.
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