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elcapinyoazz
May 13, 2004, 11:09 PM
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In reply to: 4. You'd have to be and idiot to not tell the difference between a project, or fixed lines, etc...and a piece that was left to bail or the team was unable to remove. Call me a thief, I'll call you a f#%ckin' p*ssy for bailing in the 1st place.
Werd 'em up Michael! This is INDEX...it's not like buddies were workin' some heinous new aid project. They were on a trade route baby aid crack that gets done 100 times a year or more .
Is this the same Layton that busted up his feet? That was some nasty lookin injury man, someone sent me pics of that. I hope you're ok now.
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michael_layton
May 13, 2004, 11:22 PM
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That's me!
Thanks! I'm walkin' and climbing just fine now.
in fact when I was crawling though the desert I bootied a ball-cap! And you know what? I packed my shit up in my pack and dragged it with me.
Therefor I have little sympathy for someone who is too lazy to clean up their trash.
Also, if I left gear I'd feel BAD about ruining the climb and HOPE someone cleans it.
You guys! Come on. Take some blood pressure medication or something.
I'm glad no one sent you the pic of me getting a BJ from a GIANT marmot in canada! That was circulating on the net for a while.
http://www.cafeshops.com/alpinist
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noshoesnoshirt
May 14, 2004, 12:24 AM
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good god, is this thread still going on? i was waiting for it to die a timely death, but since it ain't...
i'm gonna have to weigh in with the "it's fair game" side. let's be realistic; booty is booty. i've snagged my share of gear from the rock. i used to walk the gumby areas every monday at the new river - usually good for a cam or two, or at least a stopper. if someone lacks the skill to retrieve their own gear, and splits, they've basically left it for crafty booty hunters. if i'm willing to put in the work they weren't willing to do, it's mine. the analogies to sunglasses or shoes etc. left at the crag does not stand; those things were likely unintentionally left behind and should be left alone or placed somewhere where the losing party is likely to find them. booty is gear left (usually) intentionally. i'm not saying i'll glom onto it like scrooge mcduck - i'll happily return it if i run across the folks who left it - but it's not my responsibility to actively seek them out. many areas (like the new) see weekend warriors fresh out of the gym, their gear shiny and virginal, left behind with no one to claim it.
just one more thing. am i the only one bothered by the fact that about 90% of the anti-booty posters can't spell "thief"?
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ctclimbz
May 14, 2004, 12:44 AM
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Exciting flame war!
Just a thought. I've bootied plenty of gear. I've also had to leave gear. It all comes around in the end.
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mlcrisis
May 14, 2004, 12:51 AM
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so, if the funkmaster had said:
"...and we were walking back to the car and happened to notice gear up on this route......and when we got back to the lot no one was around"
would it then have been acceptable to take it?
I am walking along in the woods and I find a 100 bill lying on the trail....no one in sight....take it....no one in the parking lot....am I stealing it?
but for the record, I would have left this gear in this situation....
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stevep
May 14, 2004, 4:24 AM
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So the fact that they are noobs makes it OK to take their gear? That's kind of what it sounds like from your posts. I mean, a leaver biner or a stuck piece are one thing, but I would generally assume with a number of left pieces that somebody intends to come back.
Let me pose a hypothetical situation. I'm a very experienced climber, and my wife, who is also experienced, is allergic to bees. She gets stung when up on a route and doesn't have and epi pen. We're at a trad crag 20 mins from a hospital.
If this happens, I'm lowering her immediately, damn the gear, and we're off to the ER.
You happened to be 200 yards away on another climb. To you it looks like we just left this climb loaded with booty, maybe because it was over our heads (it being a 5.11 and all).
You're saying in this case, gear is fair game and you wouldn't feel bad about taking it?
If you'd hesitate in this case, can you safely make the assumption that the original situation in this thread was really that different?
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the_pirate
May 14, 2004, 5:10 AM
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In reply to: you'd be pulling a #4 camalot out of your azz and picking up teeth off the ground before you stopped me from leaving with that gear. It's fun to be a tough guy over a computer screen. I've yet to find anyone who walked the talk in the real world.
In reply to: 1. You don't deserve it back. I'll call you a f#%ckin' p*ssy for bailing in the 1st place. Accept your shame.
So does it hurt you to allow someone the opportunity to get their gear back or does it empower you to know that you are the superior climber and took their gear?
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f2
May 14, 2004, 6:34 AM
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I don't have much of an opinion on this thread but I do have an opinion on the rule i before e, except after c, i like it. so guys and gals thief is spelled THIEF see what I did there I put the I BEFORE the E.Lastly resigned is spelled RESIGNED not rescined. I'm sorry I'm a petty petty man I'm waiting for my partner, were going to go shopping at the local crag,just rained.
ROCK-N-ROLL
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glencoe
May 14, 2004, 1:23 PM
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Theft is a legal term (too). Property intentionally left in a public place is generally considered to be abandoned. Sometime in the past few years there was a conflict over bolting in Boulder Canyon, Colorado. The party who had their bolts chopped alleged to the the County Sheriff that their hangers were "stolen." The District Attorney found that the gear was abandoned, and no charges were pressed.
The reason that there is a booty tradition in climbing is competitive. Those who fail to manage their time and resources pay the penalty of bailing. Those who husband their stuff, keep thier stuff.
Climbing has always been competitive, and the booty game is just one measure of that competitiveness.
I have found gear and I have left gear. I never resented those who picked up my bail gear. I was just happy to make it back safely and to have learned a lesson for a small price.
As to those who think they have the right to leave gear on a climb and dominate it because it is their "project," this is arrogant. Why is a 5.13 or 5.10 an allowable "project" but not a 5.4? How come a 5.12 climber can bring a climb down from the good style of on-sighting but a 5.5 climber is not allowed the same advantage?
Leaving gear detracts from the aesthetics of an area and invites criticism from non-climbers who see it as litter. Non-climbers do not recognize that the project is an artistic expression of leading edge studs(ettes).
The rock is a public resource. If you litter, don't expect others to safeguard your trash and bring it back to you.
I wish there were as much public outrage about dog feces left when no-one will pick that up.
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vertical_reality
May 14, 2004, 1:54 PM
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In reply to: And I note that vertical_reality's personal profile admits that: "I've only been climbing for a short time..."
Oh sorry, I'm not a hardcore rc.comer since I haven't updated my profile since I joined the site about 2 years ago.
In reply to: If you bail and leave gear, it is booty. Plain and simple. It always has been and always will be.
I don't disagree with that. I disagree with being a total jackass who waits around knowing that numerous climbers are bailing out of a potentially dangerous situation and not giving them the chance to get their gear back after the situation subsides.
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vertical_reality
May 14, 2004, 2:10 PM
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In reply to: I hope you guys don't ever need to be rescued at sea cuz your boat belongs to whoever saved your ass.
What movie did you see that in? You obviouly know nothing about marine salvage laws.
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the_pirate
May 14, 2004, 3:10 PM
Post #62 of 87
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In reply to: Lastly resigned is spelled RESIGNED not rescined.
I love seeing stupid people post blatantly stupid things.
No one wrote recined, asshole.
However, both Largebarge and myself used the term rescind.
As in: rescind, vt 1. to take away, remove, take back. 2. to make void.
Now hustle back to high school english class and study for your vocab quiz.
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noshoesnoshirt
May 14, 2004, 4:04 PM
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i'm sensing some hostility here....
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michael_layton
May 14, 2004, 7:00 PM
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Wow, it doesn't take much to get a post deleted.
So much for defending my statement, countering the flame directed towards me, and more importantly clarifying the original post of this thread.
Anyway, it all boils down to one's ability to 1.)read (he only bootied 2 pieces of gear guys) 2.)use one's brain to judge a person's intentions (i thing he was joking about nailing) 3.)understand sarcasm (zealots rarely can see past their own dogma).
so ok, maybe the joke question about bootyin' your dead partners gear was in poor form. I still think it was funny. :twisted: I will not resign to recined my orignal post.
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fredbob
May 14, 2004, 7:20 PM
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In reply to: Oh sorry, I guess I'm not a rc.com geek like you since I haven't updated my profile since I joined the site about 2 years ago.
I did not mean to insult you, but did intend to point out that as a newer climber (and 2 years is still real new) perhaps you do not have the requisite experience to really judge the situation and traditions of booty at a larger trad crag. BTW: I have no profile, but am speaking from over 33 years climbing experience.
Like glencoe , I too used to frequent areas like Tahquitz after rain storms and gathered up tons of bail gear. I've also left gear behind to bail and I have never expected to get it back (and rarely have). It is the price you pay to descend in a situation where you determine you can't top out. Also, as pointed out, on the climb mentioned, you could easily descend (down aid) and retrieve your gear or just continue up despite the rain. Leaving a couple of pieces at your high point and cleaning the rest is not indicative of someone planning on returning.
In reply to: I wish there were as much public outrage about dog feces left when no-one will pick that up.
Exactly.
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vertical_reality
May 14, 2004, 7:31 PM
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In reply to: I did not mean to insult you,
Sorry about that, I changed my reply so that it's not directed at you.
In reply to: but did intend to point out that as a newer climber (and 2 years is still real new) perhaps you do not have the requisite experience to really judge the situation and traditions of booty at a larger trad crag. BTW: I have no profile, but am speaking from over 33 years climbing experience.
I'm aware of the existing booty etiquite, but come on isn't there any common courtesy left in climbing? I have no problem with people taking found gear, just certain situations may call for a little respect to fellow climbers.
Everyone says how when they bail on a route that they expect to never see their gear again, and I agree thats how things are in climbing, but wouldn't we be better off as climbers if the general norm was to think, I can expect my gear to be here for a day so that I can attempt to retrieve it?
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crotch
May 14, 2004, 7:57 PM
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In reply to: Everyone says how when they bail on a route that they expect to never see their gear again, and I agree thats how things are in climbing, but wouldn't we be better off as climbers if the general norm was to think, I can expect my gear to be here for a day so that I can attempt to retrieve it?
How would you propose that the next guy figures out the length of time your gear was sitting there?
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vertical_reality
May 14, 2004, 8:00 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Everyone says how when they bail on a route that they expect to never see their gear again, and I agree thats how things are in climbing, but wouldn't we be better off as climbers if the general norm was to think, I can expect my gear to be here for a day so that I can attempt to retrieve it? How would you propose that the next guy figures out the length of time your gear was sitting there?
If you watch him bailing off the climb it's too soon.
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mackavus
May 14, 2004, 8:44 PM
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I really wanted to quit this stalemate, I did ... but in response to verticals last post, just for the record:
Funk never said he watched anyone bail.
Peace though.
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mpepera
May 15, 2004, 11:24 PM
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Think of abandoned gear as litter. If you leave something behind, why does the climbing community have to wait until you are strong enough or it is convenient to remove your trash?
If you leave gear behind in a route, it no longer belongs to you. You threw it away. Don't get upset if someone finds a use for your trash.
There is also a difference between lost and abandoned gear. Lost gear is a climbing shoe or cam left at the base of a crag. Abandoned is a piece of gear left on route to bail off of.
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jefffski
May 17, 2004, 9:15 AM
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In reply to: All the “climbers” were gone by the time we got off Princely Ambitions, cleared out. ..... Booty Count, new metolius yellow tcu, small nut, three biners and a sling! .
on the face of it this seems almost reasonable. and the bootie wasn't all that much. mainly a tcu. but it's more than a stuck nut. these are important details, as least to me.
so i think you can claim it. it's not theft per se, but there is a small problem with your timing which begs (actually some people have spewed--and that is not necessary) a moral question. If they didn't steal it can/should they keep it? well for a biner i wouldn't bother with this question but, for the amount they bootied, the question is, i think relevant.
moral questions (if you have any-morals, that is) can be solved by taking the moral high road. in this case the moral high road might be to post a note on the bulletin board at the crag with your tel no. it shows you've made some effort beyond calling out "hey is this anybody's?" if after some time--say a week or two, its yours. clear and free.
As climbers it's nice to know that we can be free spirited adventurers who have no rules or laws but that we can still be mensches.
there's no point in my book in taking advantage of a situation you know nothing about. You've ASS U ME d that they bailed because it was raining).
and sometimes its just nice to be nice. otherwise you can go live in afghanistan or the US (ok that's a troll).
peace
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euroford
May 17, 2004, 1:31 PM
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i read the begining of this thread, then didn't check it for a weekish, now i'm bored so i skimmed over the 4 freekin pages that yall wrote. i have a couple observations and points to make.
1. this thread sucks.
2. booty gear rules.
3. don't leave yer gear behind.
4. if ya leave it, its fair game.
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p_grandbois
May 17, 2004, 1:37 PM
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Euro, you are just trying to sh*t disturb here. I am sure that after this entire thread, your opinion means very little. You should have just let it die. Thread is over, we all have our opinions. Some of us are THIEFS some aren't, some have ETHICS, some don't
Cheers, :shock:
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euroford
May 17, 2004, 2:16 PM
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the thread isn't over, it still had posts that i hadn't read and it was the top topic in the forum.
okay, now its over.
wait, not yet.
okay....
now!
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col_sanderz
May 17, 2004, 2:26 PM
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I like to use this analogy that may be a little clearer: Alongside climbing, I love golfing. Being a poor college student involved in two expensive hobbies, I tend to take advantage of free stuff. I live near a close golf course with a good sized creek running throughout it. During the summer my cousin will take the canoe down to the creek, paddle into the course and clean the bottom of the creek of every possible golf ball. Some people look down on this because were being cheap asses and take others balls. However, if they plunk one into the water, take a drop, and move on, they left the ball there by choice. On the other hand, if we're in the water and see someone plunk a ball in there, we'll grab their ball for them and usually toss em a few more while we're at it. So basically, don't rob someone when you can identify the victim.
PS. I didnt read all the post before replying, so im hoping this exampple hasn't been given already.
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