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sarcat
May 26, 2004, 4:38 PM
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As the lead climber starts the second pitch on a sport route I belay from ATC through the 2 opposed draws hannging on the chains OR througt a cordellete SRENE (hopefully) off of 3 bolts. If the leader falls before the first clip of the 2nd pitch he falls onto the draws or achor setup.
One thing I've seen/read is the need for an upward pull anchor for the belayer. If the only bolt is the last one before the belay point on the first pitch is that were you anchor to? And do you tie into the belay loop or the harnesses rear anchor point if there is one?
Making sure I'm doing this right. I see I actually have 2 questions. Help with each would be appreciated.
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timstich
May 26, 2004, 4:46 PM
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You are talking about a sport climb, aren't you? Just checking.
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asandh
May 26, 2004, 4:49 PM
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:?:
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sarcat
May 26, 2004, 4:51 PM
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Yep. Sport climbing with ususally 2 anchor botls w/ chains.
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cracklover
May 26, 2004, 4:57 PM
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Take the ATC off the anchor and put it on your harness. Instead, redirect the rope through the anchor. Unless you have a Gri-Gri, a reverso, or the like, it's rarely appropriate to belay directly off the anchor.
GO
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bigdrop
May 26, 2004, 5:02 PM
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The belayer should belay the leader from their harness not the anchor.
The belayer should still be tied into the rope, and secured to the anchor via cloves and backed up with an eight on a bite if desired.
If I in fact understand what you have written, its sounds to me like your method has the potential to be disastrous.
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vegastradguy
May 26, 2004, 5:13 PM
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it doesnt sound like he's clipped the ATC to anchor. it sounds like he's clipped the lead line through the power point for the first point and is belaying off his harness, as is appropriate for ALL belay devices (reverso and grigri should not be clipped to anchor for lead belaying).
no sweat on your upward pull- bolts are omnidirectional.
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sarcat
May 26, 2004, 5:16 PM
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In reply to: The belayer should belay the leader from their harness not the anchor.
So the rope goes from ATC right to the climber without any redireciton or anchor?!?! If I do what you say if the leader falls then the only thing keeping him from 150' of rope and drop is the ATC, biner and belay loop on my harness.
Let me clarify. ATC - ON HARNESS belay loop, through anchors then to climber. If falls the rope between belay device and climber is redirected through
the achor setup.
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beesty511
May 26, 2004, 5:20 PM
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Remember that you are multiplying the forces of any fall by belaying through the anchor point. If your anchor consists of two rusty bolts, then you might want to consider belaying directly off your harness or directly off the anchor, so as not to multiply the fall forces. But, when you do that, you have to resolve the issues about which direction you will need to move your brake hand because the leader will pull the belay device up if he has gear in, and the leader will pull the belay device down if all the gear rips.
In reply to: I belay from ATC through the 2 opposed draws hanging on the chains.
In reply to: If the only bolt is the last one before the belay point on the first pitch is that were you anchor to?
Are you asking about a sport route with gear anchors? Usually, you belay at the belay ledge. If there are no bolt anchors, then you build your own anchor. I wouldn't stop at the last bolt on the route and use that to belay off of.
Upward pull pieces are sometimes necessary to keep your anchor intact or to keep the belayer from getting slammed into a roof above the belay. Nuts and hexes can lift out if the leader falls and lifts the belayer up. However, cams do have the ability to rotate somewhat. Consider this scenario: the leader takes a hard fall and his top piece holds pulling you up which yanks out all the nuts in your anchor. As you both hang there on the leader's gear, the top piece rips and the rest of the pieces rip out in turn causing both of you to plunge to the deck.
You can attach the upward pull piece wherever you think it will be effective for its purpose. There is some debate on whether upward pieces actually make your anchor more dangerous. Remember the angles between the pieces of your anchor can cause the forces to be multiplied. When you add a piece for upward pull, it can create severe angles with the other pieces, so if the leader fell with no gear in or ripped all the gear, the upward piece may cause higher forces to hit your anchor.
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vegastradguy
May 26, 2004, 5:28 PM
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beetsy- your first paragraph was good, so was your second. the forces are multiplied when you redirect through anchor, but if the bolts are bomber, then it should be fine. its something to consider depending on the route and condition of the anchors.
its always better to clip directly through the hangers, never to the chains. chains can break at very low loads unless they're rated (and i've never seen a rated chain at the crag, too expensive).
the rest of that post was a result of not reading his entire first post.
he's talking about multipitch sport routes. this means bolted belays w/ chains or rap rings and more than likely a hanging belay or not a very good stance.
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sarcat
May 26, 2004, 5:39 PM
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sumarize:
1. sport routes w/belay bolts = no need for upward protection
2. using power point of 2 bolt belay ahchor is OK for '1st clip" of lead climber provided the bolts are bomber.
On number 2. if not, the options are place pro and make better, worry about vector forces.
I guess it's all about the belay bolts. I'm tied in redundant and they take the load if the leder falls before cliping the first bolt of the 2nd pitch.
Thanks guys. I'm drawing this up on paper to make sure I get it right. I realize not every case is the same.
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cracklover
May 26, 2004, 6:26 PM
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In reply to: sumarize: 1. sport routes w/belay bolts = no need for upward protection 2. using power point of 2 bolt belay ahchor is OK for '1st clip" of lead climber provided the bolts are bomber.
Correct. Actually, on #2, clipping through the anchor (or at least one of the two bolts) is more than just "OK"; it is important to protect the belay.
GO
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bigdrop
May 26, 2004, 6:49 PM
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Sorry, turns out I did misunderstand you.
In reply to: In reply to: The belayer should belay the leader from their harness not the anchor.
In reply to: So the rope goes from ATC right to the climber without any redireciton or anchor?!?! If I do what you say if the leader falls then the only thing keeping him from 150' of rope and drop is the ATC, biner and belay loop on my harness.
In reply to: Let me clarify. ATC - ON HARNESS belay loop, through anchors then to climber. If falls the rope between belay device and climber is redirected through the achor setup. |
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brolloks
May 26, 2004, 7:23 PM
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Sarcat
You could also use a quickdraw in one bolt (of the two for anchor) and use the top biner of the qdraw (connected to bolt) as one of the biners for constructing the anchor (won`t go into lockable vs normal biners for anchor building now - there are ways round this problem too). Before the leader starts the second pitch (or even unclips from the anchor) he clips the rope connected to him into this quickdraw (bottom biner of course, business as usual). This obviously means a fall before clipping the next qdraw will put impact on the one bolt of the anchor, but the situation you are describing automatically means GOOD TRUSTWORTHY bolts, so you shouldn`t endanger your anchor (if it does, the route shouldn`t be sport climbed).
I like this method, because redirecting the rope through the power point of the anchor makes me feel like it´s difficult to keep everything nice and orderly and make for untidy rope work. The other reason I like this is because, should the leader fall just after leaving the belay station, the belayer doesn`t get dragged round so much and in a worst case hitting the wall (vertical to overhang climb). Of course there are other ways to avoid this also - clip into the anchor point with a sling for extension, etc.
Actually the situation is so changeable that I would advise you to think about it more. To do multi-pitch, you need to have a proper understanding of the basics and advanced techniques of anchor building, redirecting force, etc. If you have the foundation, all other things will be easier because you can figure it out with common sense.
Or in retrospect, maybe I`m just full of it. Anyway, there are many ways to kill a (sar)cat...
Have fun, and be safe.
guidance
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beesty511
May 26, 2004, 7:24 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: sumarize: 1. sport routes w/belay bolts = no need for upward protection 2. using power point of 2 bolt belay ahchor is OK for '1st clip" of lead climber provided the bolts are bomber. Correct. Actually, on #2, clipping through the anchor (or at least one of the two bolts) is more than just "OK"; it is important to protect the belay. GO
In reply to: 1. sport routes w/belay bolts = no need for upward protection
Not necessarily. Another reason for upward pull pieces is to protect the belayer from smashing into a roof or protrusion in the rock.
In reply to: 2. using power point of 2 bolt belay ahchor is OK for '1st clip" of lead climber provided the bolts are bomber. Actually, on #2, clipping through the anchor (or at least one of the two bolts) is more than just "OK"; it is important to protect the belay
That usually doesn't provide much protection for the belay in terms of fall factors because the distance between your belay device and the power point is usually short compared to the lead out distance. The multiplication of forces will tend to more than offset the reduction in fall factor and therefore cause more force to impact your anchor. Belaying through the power point does allow the belayer to know which direction the force will be coming from which will always be in an upward direction.
Clipping one bolt is even worse. You not only mutiply the forces of the fall, but you direct the whole force of a fall on the single bolt that was clipped. If that bolt fails(or the sling or carabiner clipped to it), then the force will shock load the remaining bolt. Essentially, you will end up having divided your anchor in half--it will be a one bolt anchor with a one bolt anchor back up-- when you would rather have the force of the fall shared by two bolts.
In reply to: If I do what you say if the leader falls then the only thing keeping him from 150' of rope and drop is the ATC, biner and belay loop on my harness.
If the ATC, belay biner, or belay loop fails, it doesn't matter whether you redirect throught the anchor or not, although now that I think about it more, I suppose if the belay loop or belay carabiner broke and you redirected through the anchor, the ATC might jam in the power point and allow you to arrest the fall. The ATC could also disintegrate when it slammed into the power point.
In reply to: NO! NO! NO! Even if you could arrest that fall with your ATC the force generated would probably snap the rope in an instant (at the clove hitch you are hanging from). Always direct your rope thought the anchor!!
A clove hitch reportedly slips under relatively low loads, but if you are tied into the power point with an 8 on a bight, a factor 2 fall still isn't going to snap the rope, and the force on your anchor will be roughly 40% less than if you had belayed through the power point. The reported accidents I've read about that involve falls onto anchors are always the result of anchor failure not ropes snapping. I would be surprised if there was a single case of a rope snapping without getting cut by a sharp edge.
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cracklover
May 26, 2004, 8:46 PM
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Beesty, an upward pull piece? On a sport climb? C'mon man, work with me here. Anyway, an upward pull piece in an anchor does nothing to keep the belayer from smashing into a roof. To do that, you need an upward pull piece on the belayer. In reality, this can sometimes be accomplished on a trad climb. But when sport climbing, best bet is usually going to be to belay from a lower stance if possible (extend your anchor out with the rope).
Second, I'm tired of people telling seconds (especially impressionable new seconds) that they need to beware against belaying through beefy 3/8" stainless steel bolts. The chance of that belayer losing control of a factor two fall directly onto their atc on their harnes is very very large! The chance of those bolts failing due to a high-factor fall redirected through them, caught on a vairable-friction device like an ATC, is close to zero. No offense meant, but telling this second to belay directly off his harness without clipping the lead line through a power-point is terrible advice.
Please, if you are sport climbing and you have to ask, you should be redirecting the lead rope through the anchor. If your leader falls before clipping the next bolt, he'll thank you for the catch!
Lasty, Beesty, you're right: I can't think of any reason to ever clip the rope through only one of the two bolts. Clip through the power-point.
GO
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sarcat
May 26, 2004, 9:05 PM
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Thanks again for the input.
This is why I mainly brought the subject up. Let's say:
-2 draws are opposed for power point on 2 sport route belay bolts,
-belayer is on ledge that puts belay device almost at or level to the power point,
3.
-leader falls, onto power point.
With little to no redirection on the power point all the force is placed on the belay loop, biner and ATC. The error is that the belayer no matter what wasn't lower than the power point anchor???
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beesty511
May 26, 2004, 9:07 PM
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In reply to: Beesty, an upward pull piece? On a sport climb? C'mon man, work with me here.
The type of multi pitch climbing, sport or trad, is irrelevant. Whether or not there is a roof or protrusion the belayer can hit is the determining factor. Whether anchoring in short is sufficient or putting in a separate anchor for upward pull is necessary is an issue the climbing team should consider.
In reply to: Anyway, an upward pull piece in an anchor does nothing to keep the belayer from smashing into a roof. To do that, you need an upward pull piece on the belayer. In reply to: You can attach the upward pull piece wherever you think it will be effective for its purpose.
In reply to: Second, I'm tired of people telling seconds (especially impressionable new seconds) that they need to beware against belaying through beefy 3/8" stainless steel bolts. In reply to: Remember that you are multiplying the forces of any fall by belaying through the anchor point. If your anchor consists of two rusty bolts, then you might want to consider belaying directly off your harness or directly off the anchor, so as not to multiply the fall forces.
In reply to: No offense meant, but telling this second to belay directly off his harness without clipping the lead line through a power-point is terrible advice.
I pointed out some things he should consider. If he knows the issues, then in the right situation, it could save his life.
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beesty511
May 26, 2004, 9:39 PM
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In reply to: Thanks again for the input. This is why I mainly brought the subject up. Let's say: -2 draws are opposed for power point on 2 sport route belay bolts, -belayer is on ledge that puts belay device almost at or level to the power point, 3. -leader falls, onto power point. With little to no redirection on the power point all the force is placed on the belay loop, biner and ATC. The error is that the belayer no matter what wasn't lower than the power point anchor???
It's hard to decipher what your concern is with the force on the belay loop, belay biner and ATC. To climb, you have to have faith they are strong enough. Get an approved harness, the strongest biner you can find for belaying(both cross gate and major axis), and an approved belay device. If you do that, their strength is generally not a factor in anchor construction.
To me, it seems the issue in your scenario is whether or not the belayer would be able to control the belay in a high impact fall. The belayer's hands will get smashed into the power point in a high impact fall and that could cause them to lose control of the belay.
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sarcat
May 26, 2004, 10:14 PM
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beesty511:
I've looked for pics on proper belaying but just find bottom of sport route pics and if I look for anchors its all 3 anchor w/pro setups. Any that you know of?
My concern is not the achor, power point or the loop/biner/atc set up but making sure I've the theory/technical ability to be as safe as possible at belay stations on multi-pitch sport routes primarily during a lead fall.
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beesty511
May 26, 2004, 10:46 PM
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Ok. Generally, if your anchor is attached to bomber bolts or bomber pro, you can belay through the power point.
In reply to: and if I look for anchors its all 3 anchor w/pro setups.
As long as it's combined into a power point, and special circumstances aren't involved, belaying should the same.
Tie a figure eight on a bight or clove hitch in the rope near your tie in point to attach yourself to the power point. Give yourself several feet, so you are not too close to the power point, and get positioned so the rope from your tie in point to the anchor is tight, and you are below the power point. Rig your belay device on the rope near the leader, and clip the rope above the belay device going to the leader into the power point.
In reply to: ...making sure I've the theory/technical ability to be as safe as possible at belay stations on multi-pitch sport routes primarily during a lead fall.
On a trad route, you would make sure the leader gets in gear immediately off the belay and sews it up down low. If it's a multi pitch sport route, and the anchor bolts are bomber and can withstand 8,000lbs of force each, a factor 2 fall isn't going to rip the anchor--even if all the force goes on one bolt.
If the anchor bolts don't look so good, the leader can continue past the belay, and clip the first bolt of the next pitch, and then lower back to the belay. That serves to avoid a factor 2 fall on the belay by the leader of the next pitch(he's on top rope up to the first bolt). But, that first bolt should be good--the leader has to lower off it, and then belay the second off it, so you don't want it to fail, or else the leader or second will fall the distance from the first bolt to the belay.
If the anchor bolts are bad, and the leader doesn't have enough rope to get to the first bolt on the next pitch and back down to the belay, then you're looking at belaying directly off the anchor to avoid multiplying the fall forces, or if they are really scary, then you would belay off your waist and try to absorb as much force with your body before the fall impacts the anchor. You would also avoid just clipping draws into the bolt hangers, and consider a self equalizing system to balance the load between the bolts better.
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cracklover
May 27, 2004, 8:02 PM
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In reply to: If it's a multi pitch sport route, and the anchor bolts are bomber and can withstand 8,000lbs of force each, a factor 2 fall isn't going to rip the anchor--even if all the force goes on one bolt.
Just for the sake of claritiy... yes, bolts can hold that much. No, they don't have to be that good to hold a redirected ff2 fall. Your anchor will never see that kind of load from a factor two fall.
A factor 2 fall on a UIAA rated rope on a static belay device like a gri-gri will not generate more than about 12kN, or 2,700 pounds (not 8000). If a factor 2 fall could generate 35kN of force on the anchor, a lot of other things besides the bolts would be failing. And if you're belaying with an ATC, (as is the OP) your anchor will never see anything close to that kind of force (more like 6kN), because the rope slipping through your brake hand is the limiter on peak force.
Another reason to re-direct through the anchor is that the rope running over the biner reduces by 1/3 the amount of force your brake hand needs to hold. Especially if you're using an ATC, this reduction of force, (particularly when combined with the easier to handle *direction* of force) can make the difference between a caught leader, and a belayer with with severe burns and a leader falling to the end of the rope.
If you are belaying off an anchor that may not be able to hold a FF2 (a 10kN anchor), I'd consider that a junk anchor, and your leader is in *must not fall* territory until reaching the next bolt. Beesty's argument, if you follow it through, is that in this case, redirecting through the anchor is unwise. If the leader *does* fall, the belayer may not catch them, but at least the anchor will not fail, and the belayer will be around to clean up the mess. Pretty grim situation, but perhaps he's right.
GO
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sarcat
May 27, 2004, 8:30 PM
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In reply to: If the anchor bolts don't look so good, the leader can continue past the belay, and clip the first bolt of the next pitch, and then lower back to the belay.
Thanks for this. I had never really thought of it but why not? I've never really questioned the belay bolts much before. The more multi pitch stuff I do the more I look at 2 bolts and think how do I protect against a FF2 fall and "is my setup the best to absorb the energy". If the leader continues past the belay, and clips the first bolt of the next pitch, and then lowers back to the belay I would still have him pas the rope through the powerpoint first? My thought is yes.
In reply to: Especially if you're using an ATC, this reduction of force, (particularly when combined with the easier to handle *direction* of force) can make the difference between a caught leader, and a belayer with with severe burns and a leader falling to the end of the rope.
From now on I will try to put some distance between the ATC and the power point to avoid this. Is this why people use a munter hitch on the anchor so it's easy to adjust thier height while belaying. I've always tied an 8 then clipped once I found a comfy spot (hopefully). This usually does put me below the PP. I think my error in the past is using 2 daisys to each bolt which usually put the ATC right at the PP.
Good on ya all for helping me see throught this one.
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cracklover
May 27, 2004, 9:39 PM
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IMO, ideally the power point of the anchor should be perhaps six inches above your head. But my point was not that you should have a high anchor (which you should, if possible) but that the rope up to your leader should be directed through that anchor.
GO
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tomdarch
May 28, 2004, 11:38 PM
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The comment about climbing up to the next bolt, then lowering to the anchors is a great idea!
But a lot of the rest of this discussion is confusing me. I haven't done much multi-pitch sport, largely becuase there isn't enough of it around! People are talking about 'power points', but without a cordlette, what 'power point' are people creating?
As an example of one route that I have done (but didn't finish) is Prince of Darkness near Vegas. On that route, there are 3 bolts per station in a horizontal line, and the belays are all hanging (after the first pitch, the route is an uninterrupted slab). The way we did it was to each have a pair of slings girth hitched around the waist and leg loops of our harnesses, with a locker on each sling. At the anchors, I would just clip each locker into each hanger. I think that I belayed the second by running the rope up from my ATC to a locker on a hanger then down to the second. The second would come up and clip his slings to two of the hangers. For the other climber to start up on lead, the rope was all set in my ATC. I may have taken the rope out of the biner that was on the hanger, but I may not have.
A fall before the first bolt would have been ugly. Regardless of the fall factor, the leader could have easily fallen directly onto the belayer, and even if he missed, the rope comming tight on to the belayer could have been nasty. As a serious safety issue, we were careful to not get in over our heads. Multi-pitch is a bad place to f*** up.
I'm not saying that our setup was ideal, but it had the advantage of being quick and straightforward. Any thoughts.
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