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munckee
Jun 9, 2004, 5:28 PM
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1&2 are rated for 2kn, 3 is rated for 5. Obviously not a great holding factor, but maybe for part of an anchor system? Worth it?
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one900johnnyk
Jun 9, 2004, 5:35 PM
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here's the way i look at it. first, they're light as shit. secondly, if that's all you can get in you sure would be happier placing that than nothing. it's not like an 11 stopper you can usually jam a small cam into or something. carry them. rack em on a toy biner or soemthing if you're concerned about them getting in the way but i see little cost to carrying them. i put them on the biner with my smallest nuts..
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caughtinside
Jun 9, 2004, 5:42 PM
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I've carried the 3, but smallest I've placed is the 4. I've found #4 useful. However, I don't think you really need the tiny nuts, unless you've got reason before hand, such as the guide saying the route takes thin pro.
But what do I know, I don't carry tricams either! :lol:
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indigo_nite
Jun 9, 2004, 5:45 PM
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I took them off the rack b/c I wasn't using them. if I had any alternatives, I would not prefer using them in an anchor either.
they're light but if you're not using them, you don't really need to bring them (was my thought)
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jt512
Jun 9, 2004, 5:59 PM
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In reply to: I took them off the rack b/c I wasn't using them. if I had any alternatives, I would not prefer using them in an anchor either. they're light but if you're not using them, you don't really need to bring them (was my thought)
This logic sounds suspect. Have you considered whether these pieces are even safe to use as free climbing gear?
-Jay
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asandh
Jun 9, 2004, 6:00 PM
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:)
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asandh
Jun 9, 2004, 6:10 PM
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:)
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dredsovrn
Jun 9, 2004, 6:24 PM
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In reply to: here's the way i look at it. first, they're light as s---. secondly, if that's all you can get in you sure would be happier placing that than nothing. it's not like an 11 stopper you can usually jam a small cam into or something. carry them. rack em on a toy biner or soemthing if you're concerned about them getting in the way but i see little cost to carrying them. i put them on the biner with my smallest nuts..
I have to agree with this in general. I have only placed a #1 once on lead. It is a questionable piece at best even on half ropes, but it was the only piece I could place 30' off the deck, and it was the first piece. It at least made me feel better until I could get a bomber multidirectional 10' higher. It fell out before I topped out though. I suppose this isn't a ringing endorsement, but sometimes there is nothing else, and they don't weight much.
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holmeslovesguinness
Jun 9, 2004, 6:25 PM
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Get a few RP's (or similar micro-nut) in those sizes. I've got doubles of the #2-4 RP's, along with #3 & 4 BD stoppers on one biner. I wouldn't want to take a whipper on any piece that small, but if that's all you've got, it's (potentially) a lot better than nothing. Carrying a screamer or two to use with those small pieces is also not a bad idea.
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lostcause
Jun 9, 2004, 6:55 PM
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I carry and have used the #3 but mostly just to piss off my climbing partner who thinks they're useless :D Something like throwing in a token stopper along the route or in the belay anchor just to hear her cuss me out.
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coylec
Jun 9, 2004, 7:51 PM
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What's the best way to create an "A6" pitch? Use microstoppers for your anchor! The point of an anchor to create a massive, bombproof protection system that will prevent you from splattering on the ground. EACH piece in the system should be independently capable of preventing that splattering. Microstoppers fail in that regard.
Are they worth carrying?
(1) Better than nothing.
(2) Can be used in opposition to hold larger pieces in place.
(3) Free-french/full out aid
Are they worht leaving behind?
(1) Low potential for use.
(2) Weight
(3) Clutter
I carry them. I've placed them for protection, too: 2 & 3 connected with a sliding X. If you are planning to use them for protection, use them together ... and with screamers if you've got 'em. Consider using screamers in a series setup.
Replacing them with other pieces is a great suggestion, IMHO. See above posts for recommendations.
coylec
edit: ps - lostcause is right - they are fun to leave behind. i climbed with a guy who, after finishing the 2.5" section (and moved into a 1" section) sewed up the section with a half dozen largish cams, so he didn't have to carry 'em. funny ... really funny :twisted:
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valeberga
Jun 9, 2004, 8:01 PM
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Why has nobody brought up the fact that Black Diamond themselves specifically say that #'s 1 and 2 shouldn't ever be placed to protect a fall?
http://www.bdel.com/pdf/rm2100_c_passivepro.pdf
"for use as direct aid only"
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tradklime
Jun 9, 2004, 8:10 PM
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In reply to: Get a few RP's (or similar micro-nut) in those sizes. ...I wouldn't want to take a whipper on any piece that small, but if that's all you've got, it's (potentially) a lot better than nothing. Carrying a screamer or two to use with those small pieces is also not a bad idea.
Best advice so far. The smallest BD stoppers have limited placement options compared to equivalent sized RP's, BD Micro nuts, etc.
Psycological pro? Possibly, but that saying :something is better than nothing" goes a long way, as long as you are not wasting a lot of energy when placing them.
And to reiterate, screamer!
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tradklime
Jun 9, 2004, 8:12 PM
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Oh... and as far as an anchor goes. Hope you have better options!
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jt512
Jun 9, 2004, 8:13 PM
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In reply to: What's the best way to create an "A6" pitch? Use microstoppers for your anchor! The point of an anchor to create a massive, bombproof protection system that will prevent you from splattering on the ground. EACH piece in the system should be independently capable of preventing that splattering. Microstoppers fail in that regard. Are they worth carrying? (1) Better than nothing. (2) Can be used in opposition to hold larger pieces in place. (3) Free-french/full out aid
(1) Two can be equalized to form a strong enough piece to hold a lead fall.
(2) One might be ok if protected with a screamer.
In reply to: Are they worht leaving behind? (1) Low potential for use. (2) Weight (3) Clutter
(4) User might not understand limitations of the piece and put himself at risk thinking he's placed good pro.
FWIW, I've owned 4 sets of nuts and have never bought the 2 smallest pieces of any of them. As a rule of thumb, I don't carry pieces free climbing that aren't rated to at least 750 lbf. Don't ask me how I arrived at that number, though.
-Jay
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boss
Jun 9, 2004, 8:17 PM
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I carry them, and I've placed a #2 a few times when there were no other options. Definitely not ideal, but having that little hunk of metal in the rock sure helped with the mind games.
Boss
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j_ung
Jun 9, 2004, 8:20 PM
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If you're carrying them to use as free-climbing protection, invest in a Zipper Screamer or two, also. Even with load limiters, however, don't go thinking they're auto-bomber. The usual fall-factor cautions apply.
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billcoe_
Jun 9, 2004, 8:23 PM
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Generally they are not worth carrying. However, on certain specific routes they are very, very useful.
I've used both the 1 and 2 RPs (body weight placements for sure) to back up fixed knifeblades while leading free (not aid) trad. As you don't know how much the KB would really take in a fall, and in fact it may have been weakened even had you climbed the route before (winter ice or another climber falling on it) it adds some re-assurance for sure. If you are on a good stance and can get it in and equalize it with a pin, well...Bobs your Uncle...as they say.
Otherwise, why carry them, they hardly ever get used, normally you'd just climb up a tick more till the crack opens up a millefraction larger and put in something bigger.
B
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indigo_nite
Jun 9, 2004, 9:52 PM
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"This logic sounds suspect. Have you considered whether these pieces are even safe to use as free climbing gear? "
I wasn't using them b/c I didn't feel secure at the thought of falling on them. I later gathered or deduced that those sizes were more frequently used for aid climbing. I don't do aid (except for the humble french free).
I wouldn't share a thought here if I thought it would result in anyone's climbing unsafely. so you can take anything and you should, with a grain of salt. hah, that's probably why I respond to posts about deodorant and girlfriend advice and pants ethics. hahaha. haha.
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tedc
Jun 9, 2004, 10:03 PM
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In reply to: I have only placed a #1 once on lead. It is a questionable piece at best even on half ropes, but it was the only piece I could place 30' off the deck, and it was the first piece. It at least made me feel better until I could get a bomber multidirectional 10' higher. It fell out before I topped out though. I suppose this isn't a ringing endorsement, but sometimes there is nothing else, and they don't weight much.
That's a SICK lead no matter what the rating. :shock:
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tedc
Jun 9, 2004, 10:07 PM
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In reply to: Why has nobody brought up the fact that Black Diamond themselves specifically say that #'s 1 and 2 shouldn't ever be placed to protect a fall? http://www.bdel.com/pdf/rm2100_c_passivepro.pdf "for use as direct aid only"
Because climbers generally don't give a rat's ass what corporate lawyers think.
Screamers? Likely won't even deploy before the wires break on a #1 or #2. Better buy some scream aids. :shock:
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munckee
Jun 9, 2004, 10:10 PM
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Thanks for the input guys. I think I won't carry them since I have no intention of carrying screamers to go with them.
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jt512
Jun 9, 2004, 10:36 PM
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In reply to: "This logic sounds suspect. Have you considered whether these pieces are even safe to use as free climbing gear? " I wasn't using them b/c I didn't feel secure at the thought of falling on them. I later gathered or deduced that those sizes were more frequently used for aid climbing.
Got it. It didn't sound that way from your first post.
-Jay
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tradklime
Jun 9, 2004, 10:38 PM
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In reply to: Screamers? Likely won't even deploy before the wires break on a #1 or #2. Better buy some scream aids. :shock:
My thought on this, and it's purely reasoned conjecture. The stoppers are designed to have a minimum breaking strength of 2 kn (likely/ hopefully over built to allow for manufacturing variance, liability, etc.). Screamers are designed to activate at 2 kn (hopefully/ likely Yates is fairly precise in this design criteria). Anyway, it's all moot because the rock will likely blow before either due to such small surface area.
AKA: don't fall.
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stymingersfink
Jun 9, 2004, 11:46 PM
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use them as a rope guide. I would not count on them to stop ANY fall. They might, but who counts on might?
(Liked the scream-aid idea, though. )
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