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lumpy
Jun 23, 2004, 10:06 AM
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What does everyone think about this anchor?
http://www.climbingmoab.com/community/album/205.html
;)
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sync
Jun 23, 2004, 12:43 PM
Post #52 of 219
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To a certain extent I agree with Curt. The one stopper is definitely a good placement and when I looked closely and saw the other ones I felt that the pro was pretty good (though difficult to see in the photo).
I don't think I would worry about the rock moving at Devil's Lake. The quartzite there is very, very hard.
I just thought that with the runner extensions, a lot of the value of the redundancy in the pro/cordellette setup was negated.
I'm sure the anchor held fine and no one died that day climbing on it, but as a newbie to making anchors, I think it's important to learn as best I can all the proper principles in anchor building. One day I may be leading a multi-pitch climb and want those principles to be honed in so that I don't have to think twice about my ability to set a decent anchor I'd be willing to hang my life from. I figure the best way to do that is by practicing on my TR anchors and also analyzing other anchors for their weaknesses.
An adequate anchor isn't necessarily an ideal anchor.
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corpse
Jun 23, 2004, 2:14 PM
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There was a comment earlier about using 2 biners for the pro.. Whenever I use wired pro, even for anchor, I only use 1 biner, locker or not. It SEEMS to me, that putting 2 biners in there can put an odd load on the wire loop.
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flipnfall
Jun 23, 2004, 2:38 PM
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The cords are totally redundant because you tied a knot which causes it to act like several pieces. Anyone commenting that they are not redundant is not familiar with tying off a cordelette.
As far as not having redundancy in the crack, if you know that there's no way in heck that the crack is going to widen then there's no problem. If the crack is between a massive cliff on the left and to the right, that crack isn't going to widen. But if the crack is between a boulder and the cliff then you should find another crack to the side or further up to set at least another piece. Otherwise, one shift of the boulder and all your pieces are going to drop! :shock:
Beiners are fine in your images. :wink:
I'm quite familiar with Devil's Lake and know that the quartzite rock there is really bomber, so I'm sure that this is a solid anchor! :D
Dang I miss that place!
GT
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rocdaug
Jun 23, 2004, 2:40 PM
Post #55 of 219
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the placements look fine. But I would rather have the system extended without the use of the cord and webbing. if I could not extend it properly, I probably would have brought the rope right up to the power point and padded the edge to protect the rope.
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flipnfall
Jun 23, 2004, 2:41 PM
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In reply to: What does everyone think about this anchor? http://www.climbingmoab.com/community/album/205.html ;)
Reminds me of some of the climbs I've done in Eldorado Canyon. Nice anchor!
GT
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ic2d
Jun 23, 2004, 2:49 PM
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OK people, we need to get one thing straight here: weight is NOT measured in kilograms...MASS is measured in kilograms. Just because people say "I weigh 70 kg" does not mean the term is being used properly. And guess what, when you go into a weight room and a weight says 45 lb/20 kg...yes, they're using entirely different terms of measurement. That same chunk of iron in the absence of gravity will still have a MASS of 20 kg, but it will have no weight (force). Mass is always constant, but force is directly related to the body's acceleration (gravitational or otherwise...again, F = m*a). If you don't understand what I'm talking about, then don't bother trying to tell me I'm wrong.
But back to the original question at hand, I would not climb on this setup. I would never, ever, trust my life to one piece of webbing like that. I understand that it likely will not fail and that I'm still only using one rope. Nevertheless, why use any more single points of failure than necessary. I am curious, however, why slinging two pieces of nylon together is such a bad thing. Yes, girth hitching will reduce the overall strength of the setup, but some of you made it sound like nylon-on-nylon is a terrible thing. Please elaborate, I'm curious.
Jason
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ic2d
Jun 23, 2004, 2:55 PM
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And yes, actually, I am a rocket scientist.
In case you were wondering...
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crimpandgo
Jun 23, 2004, 4:28 PM
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I agree the anchors (nuts) look good enough.
I would NOT however trust an anchor that does not have redundancy. Especially in a case like this where redundant webbing could have been added so simply. the person setting it up either did not know, or did not have enough webbing the finish the task.
You can talk all you want about how your anchors haven't failed. I don't want to be on the end of the rope when it eventually does.
If a particular climb/area would fail to allow me a redundant setup, I would not climb the route myself. I want to live to climb another day.
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alpnclmbr1
Jun 23, 2004, 4:34 PM
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In reply to: The cords are totally redundant because you tied a knot which causes it to act like several pieces. Anyone commenting that they are not redundant is not familiar with tying off a cordelette.
As far as the belay anchor we are discussing, this is Wrong.
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rocdaug
Jun 23, 2004, 4:43 PM
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In reply to: And yes, actually, I am a rocket scientist. In case you were wondering...
not. :roll:
thank you for the excercise in precise communication. now we all know you're smarter than the rest of us. feel better? :shock:
whatever
rd
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jhump
Jun 23, 2004, 4:51 PM
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Are you people blind? Cant you see that snake? It's underneath that canopy of trees. DUH.
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joshj
Jun 23, 2004, 5:01 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Weight and force are exactly the same thing. NO! wheight is static and force can also be dynamic In reply to: Force = mass x acceleration (are you with me so far?) this sounds right to me, but i dont understand what you are saying In reply to: weight = mass times the acceleration due to gravity on earth. Duh. here. This might be true for stuff thats not moving, but if you move stuff, then you cant just use the acceleration of the erath qwert
As ic2d has said...
Weight and Force ARE the same thing.
W=m*a
near the surface of the earth (including MOST climbs)...
W=m*g
Now... if we're talking about the force exerted on a piece of pro or an anchor due to a fall... then there is an added force component that I won't go into. The formula is fairly complicated and (judging from the responses to this thread) WAY over most people's heads. But part of the force on a piece of pro during a fall is STILL F=m*g.
In a top roping application, the amount of force do to a fall (assuming that your belayer isn't stoned out of his mind) is very small. IMO, this anchor is fine for top rope.
josh
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tedc
Jun 23, 2004, 5:01 PM
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This whole anchor analysis thing is one of the best things about rc.com. Lots of comments about this anchor some good some not so good.
I have one question. It appears that on the orange cord there are 2 strands going into the overhand knot and 4 coming out??? (is this a bight? If so why?) It may just be my eyes. (I didn’t see the snake either.)
ANYWAY: Just responding to some of the comments.
Need lockers on the nuts. NO. These biners are well oriented and not subjected any type of gate loading and NO chance of the wires jumping out of unintentionally opened gates.
Don’t girth hitch: NO. The girth hitch in this case is fine. The strength reduction due to the knot is not a factor in a TR anchor. In fact this is exactly where the reliability (it WON’T come un-hitched) of the girth hitch is a good trade off for the strength of a biner connection.
Flipnfall: The orange cord is NOT redundant. Without a knot at the bottom, the upper knot seems useless to me.
Redundancy of rock features: This is always something to watch out for…But this feature looks pretty good to me?
Too many links in the extension: NO. Sure less would be simpler but I see no safety issue with linking slings/cord in a TR anchor.
Lack or redundancy of slings: YES. As some have said this is the big error here. Especially the sling over the edge, but also the orange cord. This anchor is more than enough STRENGTH for a TR anchor. (In fact it is strong enough for a belay anchor). But it is not safe because it is not redundant. And two non redundant links doubles the severity of the problem. As a comment for the curt/alpnclmbr1 “discussion: I bet the guy who tried to TR off the 1” webbing with the taped together ends thought his webbing was “plenty strong” for a TR anchor. Redundancy would have saved his life. Redundancy has nothing to do with strength (I think I have made this comment in relation to a Beginners Top Rope Anchor thread). Redundancy is the backup that saves your ass when you screw up, or make a bad choice, or miss the tape joint in your webbing, or you tied your knot wrong.
I would not use this anchor as is. (well, I might rap of it in a pinch). If this was all the gear I had there a couple very simple things that I could do that would not make it perfect but would make me happy to TR off it. It seems fine up to the cordalette tie off. I would tie an overhand on each end of the orange cord and the sling. Then girth hitch the orange sling to the cordalette and the webbing to the orange sling. Now the two strands of the orange cord ARE independent (redundant) as are the two strands of webbing (this is the really important change due to the edge abrasion issue. This still leaves you with some non-redundant points, namely the girth hitched loops at the ends of the cord and sling, but I (IMHO) would be ok with it. This problem could be solved by tying the overhands at the ends of the cord and sling on bights rather than just on the ends. This would give two loops at each overhand. It would eat up some more length, however. If you wanted to do this AND needed more length you could safely get it out of the blue cordalette. Since all three nuts are (?) bomber, I would be comfortable rigging one leg of the cordalette to the bottom nut and the other leg to BOTH of the top nuts (they would not be equalized). This would let you use a 2 legged cordalette (extra length) and you would still have two redundant nuts with no possibility for extension and one “back-up” nut which allowed for very minimal (1/2”) extension.
YES it is a gumby anchor (I can tell cause there is not cam in it.) with problems. It could be made “safe” with only the gear you see however.
Just my thoughts; long winded though they may be.
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padenjr
Jun 23, 2004, 5:36 PM
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Maybe use three independant pieces of webbing or static rope to connect to each stopper. Having them all in the same crack isn't that great though. Looks more like one anchor point backed up twice!
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ic2d
Jun 23, 2004, 6:27 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: And yes, actually, I am a rocket scientist. In case you were wondering... not. :roll: thank you for the excercise in precise communication. now we all know you're smarter than the rest of us. feel better? :shock: whatever rd
Oh please...and by the way, it's exercise. :wink:
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sync
Jun 23, 2004, 6:32 PM
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One of my climbing colleagues also points out that the rope looks like it is set between two routes, so that if you wanted to climb to either side of the power point, you could potentially saw the webbing over the edge. The Baraboo quartzite can have really sharp edges too!
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tradklime
Jun 23, 2004, 6:40 PM
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In reply to: Flipnfall: The orange cord is NOT redundant. Without a knot at the bottom, the upper knot seems useless to me.
Perhaps I misunderstand, but the one knot in the cordelette should prevent failure if just one of the lengths of cord is cut. i.e. without the knot, cutting one length would allow then entire cord to pull through, but with the knot this is prevented...
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sync
Jun 23, 2004, 6:44 PM
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In reply to: Perhaps I misunderstand, but the one knot in the cordelette should prevent failure if just one of the lengths of cord is cut. i.e. without the knot, cutting one length would allow then entire cord to pull through, but with the knot this is prevented...
That's true for the cordelette, but I think he was referring to the orange cord that is between the cordelette and the webbing at the bottom. There's a knot only in one end of that, so if one of the strands of the orange cord is cut, the webbing at the bottom falls through.
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p_grandbois
Jun 23, 2004, 6:45 PM
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Looks alright, I mean their are a few nay sayers on here that think this is crap, but come on, looks ok to me. Redundancy is not perfect, but neither is any anchor. The crack looks bomber, the guy must have a better idea about that than us. We all have no idea of the conditions of the crack, or rock. He equalized, extended over the edge.
Seriously, read a Long book, I think he himself would use this. Even in his critics he recognizes the fact that you will never get it perfect.
ohh but what if the boulder I have no idea about fails?
ooh I see a scratch on the nut he is using?
oooh two cordelettes on a bite, no no?
Come on, get off your little OVERKILL safety horse. Really.....
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crimpandgo
Jun 23, 2004, 6:50 PM
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You are willing to trust one piece of webbing over a sharp edge?????
That's insane. I will see your anchor and raise you redundant webbing over the edge :D
Have fun my friends and be safe.
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alpnclmbr1
Jun 23, 2004, 6:53 PM
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The orange cord is redundant, it is just hard to see. As far as I can tell, the sling is girthed through two loops of orange cord.
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gds
Jun 23, 2004, 6:54 PM
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In reply to: Redundancy is not perfect, ...
Actually the point is that there is NO redundancy on the extended piece of webbing.
And I think the point above by Ted is valid. It would take so little time to make it redundant, just some knots at each end.
Of course the resulting bights wouldn't be redundant but those are not the parts going over the edge.
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alpnclmbr1
Jun 23, 2004, 6:55 PM
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In reply to: Looks alright, I mean their are a few nay sayers on here that think this is crap, but come on, looks ok to me. Redundancy is not perfect, but neither is any anchor. The crack looks bomber, the guy must have a better idea about that than us. We all have no idea of the conditions of the crack, or rock. He equalized, extended over the edge. Seriously, read a Long book, I think he himself would use this. Even in his critics he recognizes the fact that you will never get it perfect. ohh but what if the boulder I have no idea about fails? ooh I see a scratch on the nut he is using? oooh two cordelettes on a bite, no no? Come on, get off your little OVERKILL safety horse. Really.....
Your an idiot if you think Long would approve of this anchor. Redundancy is not overkill!
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crimpandgo
Jun 23, 2004, 6:56 PM
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Am I seeing things? or is the webbing going over the edge in a different place in the first and the fourth picture. In the first picture it looks jammed in a crack at the edge. The fourth picture is in on top of the crack. Supports the theory the webbing might be moving around and subject to being cut. Use redundant webbing. Can't tell from this picture if it is redundant or not.
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